From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: 103376,7684e927a2475d0 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: can one build commercial applications with latest gnat and other licenses related questions... References: <449d2a28$0$11075$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <449d5c03$0$11074$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> <6sbqsh6jv7.fsf@hod.lan.m-e-leypold.de> From: M E Leypold Date: 26 Jun 2006 21:29:16 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Some cool user agent (SCUG) NNTP-Posting-Host: 88.72.218.245 X-Trace: news.arcor-ip.de 1151349788 88.72.218.245 (26 Jun 2006 21:23:08 +0200) X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-ip.de Path: g2news2.google.com!news4.google.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.unit0.net!newsfeed.arcor-ip.de!news.arcor-ip.de!not-for-mail Xref: g2news2.google.com comp.lang.ada:5092 Date: 2006-06-26T21:29:16+02:00 List-Id: "Marc A. Criley" writes: > M E Leypold wrote: > > > - Above all: How expensive is an environment with "closed > > distribution capability" (CDC)? > > Actually, once we in comp.lang.ada get off our fixation with GNAT, the Yes. :-) > answer to the above is...not necessarily that much, especially for a > hobbyist trying to convert their hobby and advocacy into a small business > (so long as Windows is the target). Well ... this is too restrictive a future to me. > The problem is that because AdaCore distributed a free Ada compiler that > could be used to build close-sourced applications for awhile, and now their Not quite. I think the history of Gnat and the obligations involved is a bit more complex than "because AdaCore distributed a free Ada compiler". > only free, maintained, distribution is for a GPLed compiler, we're all > stuck on this notion that we should have access to a free, maintained > compiler with which we can build closed-source applications. > > Move on. Right. That probably means to another language, that has all this, and where I/we can pay our due with contributions to an evinronment, where I don't have to watch my legal back all the time. Freedom is also about this: That I'm reasonably sure that things stay as they are and library licenses (GtkAda, i.e.) don't change over night and without notice. > If you can pay the $15K, or work with the GPL, then fine, otherwise look > elsewhere. I hope you're not trying to shoe me away. :-). You know I've not been arguing about Gnat now for a while, but about the unknown licence of GtkAda and the danger of Florist going completely GPL if the community relies on the maintencance supllied by AdaCore. A compiler, that doesn't have operating system bindings (or which are more restrictively licensed than the rest of the runtime) is worth nothing in my opinion and they could just as well remove Ada from Gcc tree again. > I'm sure Randy Brukardt must have just given up in frustration after years > of pointing out that Janus Ada (www.rrsoftware.com) has long been available > and is priced competitively with other commercial programming environments. I know his compilers. I appreciate his contributions to c.l.a. But the compiler doesn't seem available for Linux or BSD. > According to the website: the Professional Edition, which appear to include > CLAW, is $495 ($300/yr maintenance), while the Personal Edition (no CLAW > and some other tools) is $195 ($95/yr maintenance), though you can get a > Personal Edition combo for $295 ($200/yr maintenance). I know all that. Believe me, I researched the Ada compiler market over more than a year ago very thoroughly. Generally I'm not asking for advice here. Every discussion here seems to gravitate pretty fast to sentences like "If you cannot afford, you should or could...". As I've been reiterating ad nauseam, I'm not intrested in AdaCore Gnat anymore. But doesn't "the community" have any issues with the GtkAda license changes? If so, there are remedies to that. > Or if you want to go the Aonix route (www.aonix.com), the quote I got last > year from them was: > > Windows: $1495 + $1495/yr maintenance > Linux: $5000 + $1000/yr maintenance I got the same quote over a year ago. > So if you're looking to go the small business route, look elsewhere than > AdaCore, and maybe help out another small business (RR) in the process. You know, I understand that very well. I'd have, but the RR product line looks a bit on the way out of the market. Also, there are no bindings to a portable graphical tools kit available. What you're actually spelling out is the message: Ada is dead as a universal language. It's a language for big players and specialists only now. I've actually been prepared to hear that for some time now, but it makes me sad anyway and I've been hoping for a community (of non hobbyists) that is interested to keep a crossplatform enviroment for Ada alive. I've always had a fondness for this kind of languages (from Pascal, Modula, Ada, Oberon), but it probably makes of course no sense "in business" to decide on a this kind of gut feeling. I don't want rely on Language where there is only 1 affordable vendor (even if the bindings I need where available). And I'd like to have the option to go back on community supported tools All that is available with C/C++/Ocaml/Java/whatever. So, if for a moment we go away from "my case" (which I never thought exemplary anyway), are there actually any open questions why Ada is not the language of choice for all the small startups? This question, why there is so much (supposedly bug ridden and unreliable software) is produced in other languages which do not have the rigor of Ada, has turned up repeatedly here. Here might be some answer. I've to admit, that I'm a bit tired of the discussion, since I'm repeating myself. Just to recap my main points: - I'm not asking for advice. I know well what I'm doing :-). I'm asking for information. As I personal statement: Relying on commercially available compiler is in my eyes not an option (YMMV). Generally I'd prefer to change to another language as my primary system language. Which wouldn't preclude me from doing consulting and contract work in Ada, so what :-). - Some licensing questions are still open. Apart from the consequences certain license have or would have the first step should be to find out, what those licenses actually are. - I'm not interested in discussing what AdaCore or whoever has done or should have done. That's their business, but I'd certainly like to know what they are actually doing licensewise: This is in the dark presently as far as GtkAda and some other sources are concerned. - I wonder, how many people are here, that would be interested in trying to collect and maintain a community supported Ada environment. Regards -- Markus