From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-16 17:56:30 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!tcmay From: Tim May Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? Organization: Entropic References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9d867n$ort13@news.kvaerner.com> <3af79d85.1462818@news.minvenw.nl> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:04:53 EDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:54:30 -0700 Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7599 comp.lang.lisp:10193 comp.lang.smalltalk:9744 comp.lang.functional:5685 comp.lang.scheme:3860 comp.lang.perl:2792 Date: 2001-05-16T17:54:30-07:00 List-Id: In article , Lex Spoon wrote: > > Scheme was a fourth or fifth language for me and I like it, but I > > wouldn't deem it proper for a first course. Procedural programming IS > > a low level business, but it helps us to see that computers do what we > > tell them, not what we want them to do. > > > Others disagree, of course. One wonderful thing about Scheme is that > it's very easy to learn recursion with it. I don't think I really > understood recursion until I saw the way it's formulated in Scheme: > > (defun myfunc (x1 x2) > (cond > ((base case 1) (code for base case 1)) > ((base case 2) (code for base case 2)) > ((... however many base cases you want...)) > ((recursive case) (recursive code)))) But there are all those parentheses! It hurts my brain. (Oh, you mean other languages have their own mixtures of semicolons, colons, brackets, and other symbols?) As a physicist who hated Fortran when he studied it in the early 70s, after playing with Basic in the late 60s, and who then looked at Pascal and similar languages in the late 70s, I was thrilled to learn Lisp in the mid-80s...it made so much sense, and the Flavors system supported objects pretty well. Specifically, Zetalisp on a Symbolics 3670. Some co-workers used my Vax for some Ada work, circa 1981, but I never learned any Ada. It exposed me to objects, though. Or at least the project it was being used for, the Intel iAPX 432, did. Smalltalk was essentially unavailable at the time I learned Lisp. It was crudely available on general machines by the mid-80s. I bought Smalltalk Agents for my Mac in the mid-90s, but QKS sort of went away. Today, I am excited by Squeak, a full-blown (and more) Smalltalk. Runs on nearly every platform. Open source. Good stuff. For beginners, I have no idea which language is best. I know that Fortran punchcards for use on an IBM 360/75 is a horrible introduction to computing. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns