From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-09 23:14:06 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!freenix!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: markv@peewee.telescopemaking.org (Mark VandeWettering) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dclnt$9ic1@news.cis.okstate.edu> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.3 (FreeBSD) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:10:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.86.254 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com 989475026 24.7.86.254 (Wed, 09 May 2001 23:10:26 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 23:10:26 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7431 comp.lang.lisp:9900 comp.lang.smalltalk:9664 comp.lang.functional:5605 comp.lang.scheme:3756 comp.lang.perl:2759 Date: 2001-05-10T06:10:26+00:00 List-Id: David Starner wrote: >On Wed, 09 May 2001 18:01:10 -0500, Sashank Varma wrote: >> can you provide some evidence that: >> >> (1) any standard general-purpose programming languages resemble natural >> language at all, that there is some metric of natural language-ness >> by which they can be ordered, and that wirth-style languages score >> higer on this metric than lisp? >> >> (2) the degree to which a programming language resembles natural >> language predicts the ease with which it will be learned? > >Tell me what > !bbz#,^az@bz, >does. > >Then tell me what > > OPEN FILE ARGUMENT 2 AS 2 > BEGIN LOOP > LOAD FILE ARGUMENT 1 INTO BUFFER > COPY BUFFER TO 2 > FINISH LOOP >does. > >If I came upon the first, I would give up. The second, anyone can >probably get some idea of basically what it's doing. For a new >student, knowing that they aren't totally lost can be a huge >confidence builder. > >As for lisp itself, just from the name, what does defun or cadar >do? What do FUNCTION, PROCEDURE and BEGIN do? I've seen 2 + 2 since >the first days of school. Why (+ 2 2)? Learning a new vocabulary, >a new equation syntax is not what you want to be teaching when you >have so much else to teach. What are FILES? What is an ARGUMENT? What is this AS 2 business? What is a BUFFER? Prefix notation is not difficult to learn, especially when there is no exceptions. Scheme uses a more sensible "define" keyword. Functional programming languages that use pattern matching are more straightforward to code list processing algorithms in, I'll admit. >> (if you thinking i'm picking nits, note that i've granted you the >> implicit assumption that there is a singular quality shared by all >> natural languages, a chomsky-esque universal grammar perhaps, that i >> could have also questioned.) > >That's a theoritical assumption. How about "The vast majority of the >people who are going to be learning computer programming know an >Indo-European language, Russian, Chinese or Japanese." None of which helps you at all to learn any programming language that I've ever learned. >> there are many formal notations, and while one pressure on the form >> of notations may be resemblance to natural language, there are others >> of greater importance (e.g., minimizing the difficulty of performing >> certain operations). > >No, that's not of greater importance. It is, in fact, irrelevant for >any reasonable language. The goal is teaching people to program, >not helping experianced programmers hack up scripts or researchers >write up quicker chess programs. If something is difficult in your >chosen language, you put that off until a latter class, possibly >even in a more suitable language. > >-- >David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org >Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org >"I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and >laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored." - Joseph_Greg -- /* __ __ __ ____ __*/float m,a,r,k,v;main(i){for(;r<4;r+=.1){for(a=0; /*| \/ |\ \ / /\ \ / /*/a<4;a+=.06){k=v=0;for(i=99;--i&&k*k+v*v<4;)m=k*k /*| |\/| | \ V / \ \/\/ / */-v*v+a-2,v=2*k*v+r-2,k=m;putchar("X =."[i&3]);} /*|_| |_ark\_/ande\_/\_/ettering */puts("");}}