From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-09 16:16:06 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!freenix!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.vanderbilt.edu!sashank.varma From: sashank.varma@vanderbilt.edu (Sashank Varma) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:01:10 -0500 Organization: Learning Technology Center/Vanderbilt University Message-ID: References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.59.212.53 X-Trace: news.vanderbilt.edu 989449270 28537 129.59.212.53 (9 May 2001 23:01:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.vanderbilt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2001 23:01:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7417 comp.lang.lisp:9890 comp.lang.smalltalk:9645 comp.lang.functional:5599 comp.lang.scheme:3748 comp.lang.perl:2744 Date: 2001-05-09T23:01:10+00:00 List-Id: In article <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de>, a.krennmair@aon.at wrote: [snip] >The problem is that Lisp is in no way similar to a natural language. And >natural language can be understood easier than some functional, theoretical >stuff with a unique concept like Lisp. [snip] >Beginners can easily get frustrated because of the >sometimes confusing syntax. BTW, I wouldn't recommend starting with Java >or C/C++, either. I'd recommend and teach (if I were a teacher :) some >Wirth language, because they're designed especially for teaching basics >of programming. [snip] can you provide some evidence that: (1) any standard general-purpose programming languages resemble natural language at all, that there is some metric of natural language-ness by which they can be ordered, and that wirth-style languages score higer on this metric than lisp? (2) the degree to which a programming language resembles natural language predicts the ease with which it will be learned? (if you thinking i'm picking nits, note that i've granted you the implicit assumption that there is a singular quality shared by all natural languages, a chomsky-esque universal grammar perhaps, that i could have also questioned.) there are many formal notations, and while one pressure on the form of notations may be resemblance to natural language, there are others of greater importance (e.g., minimizing the difficulty of performing certain operations). for example, it's not the case that speakers of SVO natural languages are any more or less likely to write arithmetic expressions using infix than speakers of natural languages who place verbs at the end of clauses (SOV). sashank