From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!.POSTED.fn3LatRFkm9/xzEj7F2/NQ.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Ada in command / control systems Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 17:15:41 +0100 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: References: <2199b15b-d704-403f-a6c4-00fab29792d5@googlegroups.com> <72738cc8-3f65-4cc1-8c61-b1166cb5e3c2@googlegroups.com> <9807ec3a-4c34-4641-acfa-e9cf22de95ce@googlegroups.com> <520809e3-a705-4b10-8b54-6d67c33158a6@googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fn3LatRFkm9/xzEj7F2/NQ.user.gioia.aioe.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2 Content-Language: en-US Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:55789 Date: 2019-03-05T17:15:41+01:00 List-Id: On 2019-03-05 10:51, Maciej Sobczak wrote: >>> Managers cannot see what programmers do. >> >> Need they to? I think the established view is that [mis]management is a >> discipline of its own. A manager can manage a diary farm company or a >> software house just same... > > I think that the two statements above explain a lot. If managers have no idea what we do and we have no idea what they do, how can we expect software engineering to be a mature discipline? :-D It is not about discipline, it is about the maximum size of a project/company/organization when things stop working no matter what. >> Pictures are to convey a general idea or >> concept. It is the best way to impress but also to fool an incompetent >> manager, customer, buyer. But it is no way to analyze, design implement >> things. > > I think electrical and hardware engineers (and just about every other engineer) would disagree. Maybe they would. > Everybody relies on pictures and the general consensus is that you cannot do proper engineering without them. So there is nothing strange if people expect pictures in software engineering, too. If we cannot do them right, it does not mean that the idea itself is wrong. Maybe (yes, it's difficult to admit) we are just bad engineers and we try to hide our incompetence behind ever larger amounts or incomprehensible and unmanageable source code. > Just thinking. :-) People tried block diagrams in 60's. Somehow it did not work. Maybe general consensus is not same as objective truth? Usually consensus is only general when wrong... (:-)) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de