From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Yannick_Duch=C3=AAne_=28Hibou57?= =?utf-8?Q?=29?= Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Object Pascal vs Ada -- which is better for a hobbyist? Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2013 00:57:24 +0200 Organization: Ada @ Home Message-ID: References: <20130827230816.535a440d@atmarama.noip.me> NNTP-Posting-Host: Z+UZnJO9e89q1cqW+CZH4Q.user.speranza.aioe.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Opera Mail/12.16 (Linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Xref: news.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:16991 Date: 2013-08-28T00:57:24+02:00 List-Id: Le Tue, 27 Aug 2013 23:08:16 +0200, Gour a =C3=A9cri= t: > On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:50:20 +0000 (UTC) > Simon Clubley wrote: > > >> The problem is that the good support is more important to some >> learners than a technically better language. > > I'm in somewhat similar situation and looking onto which language to > focus my learning in order to later write multi-platform GUI app. > > However, Ada is, this time, not measured against Pascal but against D.= > > By looking at the table comparing the two languages > (http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguagesVersusD), it seems to= > me they are pretty close without any having some outstanding features > which would be insurmountable. > > Level of GUI bindings support is similar in both camps, although there= > was some psot recently about the attempt to provide some native GUI li= b > in D. If I may say, don't focus too much on GUI as you know it nowadays and = since a few decades, as this time may be more and more gone in the futur= e. = I'm currently working (not full time, but I expect it in the future) on = an = application with which the UI will be entirely in a browser, the = application being interfaced with the outside world as an HTTP and = WebSocket server. I've discovered two days ago, a CVS/SCM named Fossil, = = whose UI is made the same way, and which works also as a CGI you can = install nearly as a drop=E2=80=91in in any web=E2=80=91server, and provi= des the exact same = UI from a web server as it do when you run it from your desktop (an UI = which opens in a web=E2=80=91browser). Mac, Ubuntu, Windows, all three a= re going = toward the web=E2=80=91page style of UI (especially Windows and its Metr= o UI, = Ubuntu is going toward web integration into the desktop) in some or othe= r = ways, more or less visibly (not a lot visible with Ubunt, but it's there= = here as well). Designing an UI as creating a document structure, giving a style and = adding user gesture handlers, is easier than creating an UI all by = programming using a GUI API. Even in the age of multimedia and images = every where, an UI, is still mainly text and text layout; icons and misc= = graphics does not help that much (or even make it worse) and can't repla= ce = carefully crafted text layout (font family, size, weight, colour, style,= = decoration, indent, justification, and so on, gives more expressive = capabilities to an UI than any icon set or 3D=E2=80=91look=E2=80=91like = buttons). I may be biased, as I more see an UI as a presentation more than a progr= am = (to me, the program is what's behind the UI, and the UI presents it to t= he = user), but that was to tell a bit (I may be wrong, but I believe I'm not= = wrong). That's why I'm not afraid of Ada lacking a standard GUI library. Anyway,= = no GUI libraries could gain wide acceptance. The option of an Ada GUI = comes back here from time to time, and the replies prove there is no hop= e = for a GUI library which could please at least 10% of people (more likely= = there would be 10 different API, one for each of these 10%). > Based on what I can see, development of D is (more) in FOSS-spirit and= > it looks that D is more interesting language for open-source projects > with very active mailing lists and choice between 3 compilers (DMD, LD= C, > GDC) while Ada seems not to be very popular choice in FOSS world. > > Not long ago there was a post in D forums with with subject "Why I cho= se > D over Ada and Eiffel", > (http://forum.dlang.org/thread/vqsnloitqvouoahdngzb@forum.dlang.org), = so > I'm interested what would be reply here on the topic? > Seems he had issue with array resizing? So seems he never learned about = = Ada standard containers library or did not see he had all freedom to = create the opaque data type he needed. An opaque data type for resizable= = array, is not a big issue with Ada, and that's even a common learning = example. That said, thanks for mentioning D, as I did not suspect it was still = there. Will read about it a future day, out of curiosity, as it seems to= = support design by contract and type constraints as Ada do. I just surely= = won't switch to it, as I don't believe any legacy kind of language can g= o = a lot more above with safety than Ada already do, if not with the help o= f = formal methods, and formal methods are another area (SPARK, Isabelle/HOL= = and so on) and are rather target language neutral. For the last words: you mentioned FOSS, saying the FOSS world does not = like Ada. Well, I don't feel the FOSS world enjoy D a lot more, as I've = = never seen the FOSS mention D until today. Just would like to say = confusing technique and politic is not good. Either you make a choice wi= th = technical argument or with political intention, but not both, as the = latter will near to always want to shadow the former (I know it from = experience, too much). Also keep in mind there is a GPL GNAT, and that i= f = many commercial applications choose Ada, this does not prevent to choose= = it for home or freeware or FOSS applications. -- = =E2=80=9CSyntactic sugar causes cancer of the semi-colons.=E2=80=9D [1] =E2=80=9CStructured Programming supports the law of the excluded muddle.= =E2=80=9D [1] [1]: Epigrams on Programming =E2=80=94 Alan J. =E2=80=94 P. Yale Univers= ity