From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-17 08:30:04 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.netscape.com!pixie.netscape.com!not-for-mail From: David Rush Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: [OT] Software Engineering at 14 (was: Re: Beginner's Language?) Supersedes: Date: 17 May 2001 16:21:07 +0100 Organization: Netscape Communications Corporation Message-ID: References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9ddfv2$gl3$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dh21o$i8crr$2@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dhtr9$59d$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dmq0v$60r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <9dmvrg$49c$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dnnnf$idk$1@hecate.umd.edu> <9dntj0$elp$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dp8km$1i8$1@hecate.umd.edu> <9ds03g$phk$2@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.222.237.102 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7617 comp.lang.lisp:10228 comp.lang.smalltalk:9782 comp.lang.functional:5702 comp.lang.scheme:3884 comp.lang.perl:2803 Date: 2001-05-17T16:21:07+01:00 List-Id: peter.schuller@infidyne.com (Peter Schuller) writes: > >C.S. Lewis (who was an educator before he was an author) talked about > >this problem over 40 years ago. He pointed out that you can really > >only measure such tangibles as the student's retention of "facts". > > I agree with this - mostly. But the issue at hand was wheather you learned > something useful in history class, not wheater you can measure it :) Yes, and my point is/was that there *are* useful things that can be learned from the study of history, but they can't be spoon-fed as part of a class without becoming a dangerous form of political indoctrination. You can (honestly) only teach the facts (distorted by politics though they may be). The student has to think for himself. The original poster, who was whinging about the irrelevance of studying history on a computer curriculum, clearly never grasped that basic fact. In fact, computer science is, in general, far too ignorant of *it's* history. Other engineering disciplines make a point out of post-mortem analysis of errors; few indeed are the computer firms/software engineers that do. I remember having one professor in my Uni. days who lamented this; I have learned since that he was very right. If you're ignorant of history, you *will* repeat; even if you're compliant to the latest silver-bullet buzzword. For that matter the "soft sciences" have more to tell us in practical CS than many of us geekier types would like to admit. Large-scale programming is at least as much a social exercise as it is a technical one. Broad education[1] is *good* for software development. david rush [1] IIRC, at least one poster (the same one who complainmed about having to learn history?) sang out in praise of Perl. While I am not a Perl fan, you have to admit the Larry Wall is very broadly educated/informed, and he himself clains that he has brought ideas from many diverse topics to bear in the design of Perl. -- In no other country in the world is the love of property keener or more alert than in the United States, and nowhere else does the majority display less inclination toward doctrines which in any way threaten the way property is owned. -- Democracy in America (Alexis de Tocqueville)