From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-16 13:46:10 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Sender: brlewis@kindness.mit.edu From: brlewis@my-deja.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dclnt$9ic1@news.cis.okstate.edu> <3B02C05B.BA4B63C6@raytheon.com> Date: 16 May 2001 16:44:35 -0400 Message-ID: Organization: MIT Alumni X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: KINDNESS.MIT.EDU X-Trace: 990045882 senator-bedfellow.mit.edu 1930 18.152.1.145 Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7591 comp.lang.lisp:10175 comp.lang.smalltalk:9734 comp.lang.functional:5678 comp.lang.scheme:3853 comp.lang.perl:2783 Date: 2001-05-16T16:44:35-04:00 List-Id: Robert Posey writes: > I pick Java as the first language, it makes C++ easier to learn, it > has fewer nasty surprises, You mean than C++? > and integrates with the web well, so that > fun projects are possible. Why should an introductory programming course involve knowing about structured documents? Shouldn't the focus be on the structure of programs instead? In Scheme, the actual *programming* is fun; no need to wrap a pretty web page around it. After the beginning programming course is over, those who want to do web work have good tools to choose from, e.g. SSAX if they want to write programs that manipulate structured documents, BRL if they just want to stick server-side program code inside a web page. To see some fun, quick web hacks with source visit http://www.webappcabaret.com/brl/p/brlewis/index.brl > In addition, it is important in the modern > University Environment to allow work to be done on either Windoze, > Linux, Mac and Unix environments and Java does that without forcing > the Graders to maintain different systems. What release of Java is the Mac up to now? How about BSD? Do you have all the platforms stick with the least common denominator? This version skew is why a lot of languages now boast of being "more portable than Java." > Java IDE vendors IBM and > Sun also provide relatively easy to use and free IDE's. Do they work with the least-common-denominator Java, or do you need a recent version? I notice that the latest version of the DrScheme IDE is available for all the platforms you mentioned. I've tried it on NT and Linux; it works the same on those platforms, and presumably on Mac as well. > LISP is a great language, but its so different it is nightmarish at > first to people with some programing experience Not everyone finds it nightmarish to learn something new and different. The two coworkers I've been teaching Scheme to have found it interesting. > I also would never want a student to be able to > ignore what type of number they are using, its very bad practice in > most cases. You mean like writing x/y in Java without paying attention to whether x and y are floats or ints? How do you keep a student from doing that? -- Bruce R. Lewis http://brl.sourceforge.net/