From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,88ed72d98e6b3457 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-11-03 13:28:13 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!freenix!enst.fr!melchior!cuivre.fr.eu.org!melchior.frmug.org!not-for-mail From: "Alexandre E. Kopilovitch" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Standard Library Interest? Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:02:24 +0300 (MSK) Organization: Cuivre, Argent, Or Message-ID: References: <_Qnpb.67353$mZ5.428086@attbi_s54> NNTP-Posting-Host: lovelace.ada-france.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: melchior.cuivre.fr.eu.org 1067893456 68590 80.67.180.195 (3 Nov 2003 21:04:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@melchior.cuivre.fr.eu.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:04:16 +0000 (UTC) To: comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org Return-Path: In-Reply-To: <_Qnpb.67353$mZ5.428086@attbi_s54>; from "Mark A. Biggar" at Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:54:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mail/@ [v2.44 MSDOS] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at ada-france.org X-BeenThere: comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Gateway to the comp.lang.ada Usenet newsgroup List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:2010 Date: 2003-11-04T00:02:24+03:00 Mark A. Biggar wrote: > > I wonder, why do you think that mentoring is more important in software > > engineering than in all classical sciences? Or in professions like doctors and > > lawyers? There is enough complexity, and safety requirements are often high > > enough. And no one of them is organized in guilds now. Even those "social" > > sciences that until recently traditionally have competing "schools" (which > > somehow resemble guilds) are gradually leaving that way. > > But the other professions DO use a guild system. Just because they > aren't called apprentices and journeymen any more (they're called > med-students and residents or law-students and associates instead) > doesn't mean those professions don't work that way. Don't let the fact > they call themselves the AMA and the BAR and don't use the word guild > anymore fool you, and notice that they control entry into membership > just as fanatically as any medieval guild ever did. Well, they have various associations, which sometimes may be seen as direct heirs of old guilds in some respects, but nevertheless they aren't guilds, they are just professional associations. There are big differences between an old-fashioned guild and today's professional association: the former is compact, homogeneous and execute tight control over activities of its ordinary members, while the latter is often highly distributed, often heterogeneous, and as a rule, controls own members loosely only. Actually, an appropriate kind of organization depends not on general qualification and skills, but on *role*. A guild of advocates may be quite appropriate, while a guild of judges is very doubtful, and a guild of prosecutors is absurd. And general qualification for all them is the same - they all are lawyers. Likewise, for software engineers I can accept a guild of testers (I mean real testers for completed complex projects, and not ordinary QA staff), but at the same time I believe that a guild of software engineers - system designers - is entirely inappropriate. > Yes, most good software engineers learned most of what they know from a > few good mentors (and I bless those that mentored me) and it would be > nice if it were a little more formal. I think I pointed at the same direction when I said about curriculum. And a guild of software engineers seems to be a move in opposite direction. Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia