From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: 103376,703c4f68db81387d X-Google-Thread: 109fba,703c4f68db81387d X-Google-Thread: 115aec,703c4f68db81387d X-Google-Thread: f43e6,703c4f68db81387d X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,gid109fba,gid115aec,gidf43e6,public X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Path: g2news1.google.com!news3.google.com!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:58:25 -0600 Sender: jsa@rigel.goldenthreadtech.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c++,comp.realtime,comp.software-eng Subject: Re: Teaching new tricks to an old dog (C++ -->Ada) References: <4229bad9$0$1019$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1110032222.447846.167060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <871xau9nlh.fsf@insalien.org> <3SjWd.103128$Vf.3969241@news000.worldonline.dk> <87r7iu85lf.fsf@insalien.org> <1110052142.832650@athnrd02> <1110284070.410136.205090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <395uqaF5rhu2mU1@individual.net> <1111607633.301232.62490@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1111628011.160315.134740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> From: jayessay Organization: Tangible Date: 25 Mar 2005 22:02:56 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.6.25.79 X-Trace: sv3-92RxPu/dtYp5DBqERdtjvIHMe4tBlZRGq8/TUUkR0h1qXbWSEflFtFrQY79+0thZ/mLVohGiFgOeF+e!YI1CvZKqfeJx/8kYzWFlmAuDEcPwpUvXsjFZz4l77NItbzuk7wZ/K6BTfdP20cIOwwIGaIp5oWD5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.32 Xref: g2news1.google.com comp.lang.ada:10007 comp.lang.c++:47311 comp.realtime:1731 comp.software-eng:5347 Date: 2005-03-25T22:02:56-05:00 List-Id: "Dr. Adrian Wrigley" writes: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:59:39 -0500, jayessay wrote: > > ... > > of _expressive capability_ in either Ada or C++ or Eiffel or ?? is so > > _low_ that it again is simply amazing to see people so vehemently > > arguing over differences that are almost invisible. > > *I* think the evidence is now very strong that programming language > choice *is* massively important for overall success of large projects. I concur completely. Those who think otherwise largely fall back on the old "Turing equivalent" argument which, since all the languages under discussion are TE, is basically irrelevant. > The problem is a lack of scientific method in determining this, > resulting in a big analytical problem with (also massive) > confounding factors. This is also true, but it is not something that will likely ever change due to massive economic reasons. I suspect you understand this by your "(..massive) confounding factors" comment. > one snippet from a Google search: > "Gartner is now saying 70% of all Java projects so far have failed" > but only "40% of all projects fail." One of the problems here is that the vast majority of Java projects are handled mostly by a horde (colony?) of "code monkeys". Personally, I think Java sucks, but I don't think you can conclude much from those stats though. > and > "C++ programs typically have roughly six times the lifetime ownership > costs of equivalent programs written in C, Ada or Fortran, and fewer > than one third of programming projects begun in C++ are completed." This is _much_ more believable, but again such stats are intrinsically suspect. > Can anybody post links quantifying how much better C++ is than C or > Ada (in terms of project cost and outcome)? Sure, but again all these things are either a) toy examples, or b) completely uncontrolled experiments leading to c) dodgy information. > Of course I enjoy programming in C/C++ very much, having C, sure. C++? You have my sympathies. > total debugging time so much shorter in Ada (I've almost I'm here because I still do follow Ada and cla a bit as I always thought it was at least reasonbly well thought out. At the moment I have the great fortune of using Common Lisp. /Jon -- 'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com