From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,1116ece181be1aea X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-09-22 04:40:16 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!area.cu.mi.it!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!tar-alcarin.cbb-automation.DE!not-for-mail From: Dmitry A. Kazakov Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Is the Writing on the Wall for Ada? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:48:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <8mgdmv08eaabv53vv5sofud2k40lbo0fdh@4ax.com> <6roimvg39s8h5ba64u9pn0trsa4d3u4kai@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tar-alcarin.cbb-automation.de (212.79.194.111) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1064230815 3264727 212.79.194.111 (16 [77047]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:42736 Date: 2003-09-22T13:48:33+02:00 List-Id: On 19 Sep 2003 18:44:33 -0700, aek@vib.usr.pu.ru (Alexander Kopilovitch) wrote: >Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > >> >> Can't common people perceive scientifical concepts in the form of a >> >> vision? >> > >> >Sad to say, they can't. >> >> Come on! Everybody had a vision of a TV set. > >Well, and which scientific concepts are represented by this wooden or plastic >box with a glass screen showing dynamic images and something inside producing >speech and music? To peceive and to understand are well different things. For example, I percevie chancellor Schroeder, but beat me, I cannot undersand him! (:-)) >> >Their recognition facilities aren't trained for that. >> >> Rather, they are well trained not to recognize it. > >It's impossible - to train not to recognize - at least at current state-of-art >and not a single person, but a big part of population. You can (with big and >very costly effort) block a particular way of recognition, but no more. Oh, this is very possible. For example, people trained to eat McDonald's food will not accept any decent dish. People permanently watching MTV are unable to recognize virtually any music. Wirth wrote that students once exposed to Basic are beyond any hope... >> >Science fiction literature in its best efforts tried to make a bridge for that, >> >but even the best authors - Isaac Asimov, John Wyndham, Stanislav Lem, Boris >> >and Arkady Strugatsky >> >> Hal Clement > >Hm, I never heard of him. Well, these days it isn't too hard, probably I'll >try to see what other people said about this author. Strugatsky called him Jules Verne of XX century. They translated his Mission of Gravity - one of the best science fiction novels. >> > - fell short of that; they mostly provided glimpses of >> >only human part of scientific environment, that is, human logic, human decision >> >mechanism etc. ... although some novels of them (especially of Asimov) may be >> >useful for an intermediate level, as it pertains to the scientific concepts. >> >> Honestly speaking, among these writers only Clement and maybe >> Strugatsky tried to show a science-oriented society, where knowledge, >> rather than money, is a measure of success. > >Given current circumstances regarding intellectual property, I can't resist >to ask question: if knowledge, rather than money, is a measure of success, >doesn't this mean that knowledge became a property in that science-oriented >society? -;) In my dilettantish opinion, there is a difference, knowledge is difficult to separate from its carrier. The-Mickey-Mouse-movement against freedom of speech was so successfull because in case of recorded music and movies it was relatively easy to do. >> All others are considering space ships as granted. > >I see no problem with it, they just extrapolate from already established tendency; >nevertheless, Asimov's spaceships are still evolving (after 20+K years), for >example in "Foundation and Earth", where this is significant for a plot. > >> >Fruits of science can't be directly visible. All good (or arguably good) fruits >> >of science must first pass through engineering, >> >>It is no matter. Cash must also pass through a money access machine. > >But money access machine doesn't change the money, and you get exactly what >you expect, you know the thing in advance. I think you will be much surprised >(and quite unpleasantly), if you get from something you never seen before >(and of unknown value and of entirely unfamiliar form) from a money access >machine. > >> Similarly as with science, people grown in rich families often despise >> money and become anarchists, socialists, anti-globalists, greens etc. >> They just take wealth [created by others] for granted. > >I don't know how often it happens (I never meet such persons, and I strongly >suspect that you also have no reliable sources for statistics about this >phenomena), but anyway I do not count those, almost always young people being >so stupid - I think they just are trying other values... rich families provide >them possibility for an experiment without too much danger for their present >and future status - so why not to use this opportunity (sometimes)... ? This is what I meant. This is the pattern. It is like a believer, visiting shrines of all possible gods, church, mosque and not forgetting to buy a horoscope and a herbalife course, just in case. (:-)) --- Regards, Dmitry Kazakov www.dmitry-kazakov.de