From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fdb77,5f529c91be2ac930 X-Google-Attributes: gidfdb77,public X-Google-Thread: 11232c,59ec73856b699922 X-Google-Attributes: gid11232c,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,583275b6950bf4e6 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: f43e6,899fc98b2883af4a X-Google-Attributes: gidf43e6,public X-Google-Thread: 1108a1,59ec73856b699922 X-Google-Attributes: gid1108a1,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-05-15 23:12:27 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news2.euro.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read3.inet.fi.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: "Anders Wirzenius" Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.object,comp.lang.ada,misc.misc,comp.software-eng References: <9fa75d42.0304230424.10612b1a@posting.google.com> <17cd177c.0305072114.24f04783@posting.google.com> <9fa75d42.0305090612.261d5a5c@posting.google.com> <9fa75d42.0305091549.48b9c5d9@posting.google.com> <7507f79d.0305121629.5b8b7369@posting.google.com> <9fa75d42.0305130543.60381450@posting.google.com> <5mmwa.65$dp4.60@read3.inet.fi> <9fa75d42.0305150600.72feef7f@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Quality systems (Was: Using Ada for device drivers? (Was: the Ada mandate, and why it collapsed and died)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:12:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.251.142.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@inet.fi X-Trace: read3.inet.fi 1053065546 194.251.142.2 (Fri, 16 May 2003 09:12:26 EEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:12:26 EEST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.java.advocacy:63885 comp.object:63511 comp.lang.ada:37376 misc.misc:14215 comp.software-eng:19218 Date: 2003-05-16T06:12:26+00:00 List-Id: "soft-eng" wrote in message news:9fa75d42.0305150600.72feef7f@posting.google.com... > "Anders Wirzenius" wrote in message news:<5mmwa.65$dp4.60@read3.inet.fi>... > > > He had a lucky time since the programers were loyal to him. I wonder how Mr Spolsky had reacted if the programmers had ignored his > > pages and programmed the macro handling based on their own knowledge of macro language strategy? Had he intervened in their work or > > just trusted them and let them do their job? > > Well, that's where the trust comes from. > > The basic idea is that you assume your > programmers are smart, conscientious workers. > > If you go with that idea, then the only reason programmers > would ignore his pages is if he was a very dumb person, hired > accidentally, and had no clue what he was designing. > > In which case, perhaps ignoring his pages would have > been the right thing to do. > > "Consensus building" does require support from hierarchy. > But the primary motivation is "does this makes sense", > rather than "what is the opinion of the highest person > in the hierarchy who is involved". It is easy to be a manager in any management culture when things are going nice and smoothly. The real quality of the management style is tested when problems arise (hired wrong person...different way of thinking...two persons just cannot sit in the same room...alcoholism...using working hours for private business ...). "Assume your subordinates are smart", "make sure", "trust", "hire right people" are all round words. The interesting thing is to analyse in detail the difference between the acting of MS managers and Juno managers when they encounter problems. > > The real world lies of course somewhere between these. You need "management" to some degree and therefore I stick to what I wrote in > > a previous post: "Error catching as early as possible is a good co-worker to both the programmer and his superior". > > Compilers that reveal programming errors or issue warnings are a good thing to both me and my superior. > > But if you are managing, this should be an issue > for your programmers to decide by consensus > and not for you. (Of course, it is a management issue > if you are subcontracting to some DoD or Boeing thing > and getting the contract depends upon Ada. In that > case, you have to explain nicely to your programmers > "I know Ada is slow and frustrating to work with, but > it's not really our choice, and you all are good folks, > so I know you will get things done anyway.") At least this troll is an attempt to get the thread back towards the original discussion :) Anders