From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FROM_WORDY autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 101deb,23963231b5359f74 X-Google-Attributes: gid101deb,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,23963231b5359f74 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1073c2,23963231b5359f74 X-Google-Attributes: gid1073c2,public X-Google-Thread: fdb77,c9f2b97a84c48976 X-Google-Attributes: gidfdb77,public X-Google-Thread: 10a146,23963231b5359f74 X-Google-Attributes: gid10a146,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-07-15 17:58:02 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr11.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Ken Garlington" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.pl1,comp.lang.vrml,comp.lang.java.advocacy References: <9gsvr7$7ho$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9folnd$1t8$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <3B1FE1FE.B49AE27F@noaa.gov> <9fotpi$4k6$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <3b24dc21$1@news.tce.com> <3B25D5FB.15C9B240@dresdner-bank.com> <9g5as6$hbq$1@magnum.mmm.com> <9g5ipg$roq$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9g614i$at4$1@magnum.mmm.com> <9g7r02$mni$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <3b366a2b$6$fuzhry$mr2ice@va.news.verio.net> <9h7guv$pt1$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <3B3879CE.AC550F8E@acm.org> <3B3E73E8.F9C36524@ix.netcom.com> <3B405DDF.5C3F9207@acm.org> <3B416975.D7F0691D@ix.netcom.com> <3B432AD8.3828FB9@acm.org> <9i1q0r$324$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <7F917.2087$jf.539468852@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> <3B4648A3.BECC1FE8@acm.org> <3B47CB75.234C0543@acm.or g> Subject: Re: Market pressures for more reliable software Organization: ex-FlashNet, now Prodigy X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.67.103.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com 995245002 6207069 65.67.103.14 (Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:56:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:56:42 EDT Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 00:56:42 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:9979 comp.lang.java.programmer:82635 comp.lang.pl1:1235 comp.lang.vrml:4040 comp.lang.java.advocacy:23482 Date: 2001-07-16T00:56:42+00:00 List-Id: "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote in message news:3B47CB75.234C0543@acm.org... : : : Ken Garlington wrote: : : > "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote in message : > news:3B4648A3.BECC1FE8@acm.org... : > : : > : Ken Garlington wrote: : > : : > : > If I understand the argument right, the proposed definition of : > : > "decentralized programming" is "the programmer did not physically stand : > at : > : > the CPU while working." : > : : > : That might be Condic's definition; it certainly isn't mine. I'm referring : > to : > : such unimportant matters as analysis, design, coding, : > documentation, : > : configuration control, debugging and resource allocation. : > : > Oddly enough, this is precisely the definition I *thought* you were using. : > This definition, of course, means that there has never been truly : > centralized programming, anywhere - even before the advent of computers - : > for any organization of more than one or two people. (See the part of my : > discussion that was snipped.) Sort of takes all of the meaning out of the : > words "decentralized" and "centralized," doesn't it? Personally, I prefer my : > words to have meaning... : : ROTF,LMAO! : : There's never been truly decentralized analysis? There's never been truly : decentralized design? There's never been truly decentralized coding? There's : never been truly decentralized documentation? There's never been truly : decentralized configuration control? There's never been truly decentralized : resource allocation? Maybe in an anthill there isn't, but in any human : organization there certainly is. : : If you want your words to have meaning, then you should invest some thought in : them before setting finger to keyboard. Errr... hello? Note that I am saying that *your definition* of decentralized programming would lead one to the exact ridiculous conclusion that you take so much care in ridiculing. I quote from my prior statement: "This definition, of course, means..." I'm glad that we agree that defining "decentalized" in the manner you appear to espouse is silly, since then there would then be no possible chance to have a "centralized" environment. Perhaps you could refocus your energy on a better definition - one that would not lead to such an illogical conclusion. I find your last statement satisfyingly ironic. : > Brooks describes the S/360 OS development environment in "Silver Bullet." : > IIRC, that was an IBM product. Wasn't IBM a "hardware vendor" back then? (I : > think they even had a pretty good market share :) : : Please learn the difference between an existential quantifier and a universal : quantifier. Although if George Mealy is to believe things weren't as well : controlled at IBM as they ought to have been, I never made any claims about how : IBM was run. Actually, I made an A in my logic course. How did you do in your debate course? As I said below, I do not believe the experience described by Brooks is atypical. Most respondents to this thread agree. Therefore, if we are to build a case on which is position is merely based on an isolated anecdote, and which represented the "usual" state of affairs, the weight of evidence appears to be on my side. : > Those who worked *directly* for organizations developing business : > application software might have a different perspective than those who : > developed the hardware on which those machines operated. : : I've worked for both. Most of my experience has been on the customer side. So, you experience on the customer side indicates that the Brooks description is atypical? Interesting. Perhaps you could justify such a belief with some examples from your extensive business applications development resume.