From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.107.58.70 with SMTP id h67mr12279920ioa.38.1522295780717; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3464:: with SMTP id v91-v6mr1970117otb.4.1522295780614; Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!news.roellig-ltd.de!open-news-network.org!peer01.am4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!199-v6no6963796itl.0!news-out.google.com!u64-v6ni2975itb.0!nntp.google.com!199-v6no6963790itl.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:56:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <21e81c06-9352-407d-891c-ec54eed1b249@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.233.194; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.233.194 References: <3c3d7301-c0dd-4953-bce1-5ac4050457a8@googlegroups.com> <139fa27c-2f53-4758-81ba-dd403a30e4ef@googlegroups.com> <21e81c06-9352-407d-891c-ec54eed1b249@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: requiring Ada(2020?) in self-driving autonomous automobiles From: "Dan'l Miller" Injection-Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:56:20 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 5985 X-Received-Body-CRC: 2995604244 Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:51247 Date: 2018-03-28T20:56:20-07:00 List-Id: On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-5, Bojan Bozovic wrote: > Programming (or software development, if you like that words better) meth= odology needs to be changed, > and verifying software against specification So the specification for self-driving cars is in good shape, defining exa= ctly what the expectations in the problem-space are to emulate human-qualit= y of driving? No, they are not, because in general they are falling into t= he category of: 0) Use the reference implementations of realtime software provided by the s= ensor hardware manufacturers. 1) Have a neural network. 2) Train the neural network on dry roads on a sunny day without road constr= uction. 3) Once the neural network drives no worse than a nervous teenager, add one= hazard at a time to further train the neural network. 3) Then a miracle occurs. 4) The neural network knows how to have the reflex of the spinal cord & bra= in stem. The neural network knows how to have the reptilian brain for trac= king object identity and movement. The neural network knows how to have th= e mammalian brain for social order. The neural network knows how to have a= human-level of inductive & deductive logical & spatial reasoning about why= spontaneous events are happening and how the other guy will likely respond= . And it knows how to coordinate all those layers of brain processing in a= ll the varieties of road hazards concurrently: pedestrian walks out onto t= he roadway during a snow storm at night when the road is glazed with ice wi= th a tractor-trailer semi truck tailgating behind with a disabled vehicle o= n the shoulder up ahead. What we would recognize as software in these self-driving autonomous vehicl= es is primary in the drive-by-wire category of operating the realtime contr= ol of the LIDAR and other sensors. The failure of self-driving autonomous = vehicle software is far more likely in the vicinity of steps 2 through 4 of= the requirements specification above. Fidelity of transliteration of the = requirements specification into neural nets on one hand and realtime softwa= re control of sensor hardware on the other hand probably doesn't even make = the top 10 root causes of wrecks of self-driving automobiles. The neural n= etwork and its undesired ability to learn the wrong lesson during training = is far more likely the root cause of wrecks & mishaps & maiming & deaths. > together with testing must be viewed as indispensable, Remember what you think of as testing (either the verification of the fidel= ity of transliteration of the requirements or the validation of whether the= requirements specification was wise in the first place), they think of as = training the neural net. What you think of as a sacred methodical process,= the neural network thinks more of as merely more opportunities for trial-a= nd-error training. > not some arcane procedure reserved for those that code aircraft, spacecra= ft and missile software. Yeah right. Vehicles with hardware sensors in the air have an entirely dif= ferent set of =E2=80=A2realtime=E2=80=A2-software characteristics than vehi= cles with hardware sensors on the ground. Both real and time differ when i= n the air and when on the ground. Fly-by-wire is entirely different physic= s & control-theory processing than drive-by-wire. Yeah right. > Anything that makes writing correct programs easier Define easier with respect to emulating a human being's conscious brain ato= p a mammalian brain atop a reptilian brain atop a brain stem atop a spinal = cord in front of a steering wheel and gas pedal and brake pedal (and clutch= pedal and gear shift in the case of self-driving autonomous tractor-traile= r semis/lorries). =20 Even independent of this difficult emulation, I think Python is generally p= erceived to be easier for programmers than, say, Ada. That is, easier in e= very metric other than assuring correctness (and perhaps readability). Wha= t kind of ease do you wish to optimize? (Probably the wrong kind.) > is welcome and needed, self-driving cars are just one aspect of the probl= em. Randy/ARG has identified self-driving autonomous automobiles as a likely ki= ller* app of Ada2020, so that is why it is a very important topic to discus= s, despite your attempt to deflect away from it. * so that self-driving autonomous automobiles are no longer killers. Oh th= e irony.