From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-25) on ip-172-31-91-241.ec2.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=3.0 tests=none autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 Path: nntp.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Niocl=C3=A1is=C3=ADn_C=C3=B3il=C3=ADn_de_Ghlost=C3=A9ir?= Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: In precision typing we trust Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:52:01 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Message-ID: References: <107uv9g$3019a$1@dont-email.me> <107v1ji$303of$1@dont-email.me> <336fbb5f-a279-ea8e-67fd-f62bb00d6a89@irrt.De> <107vfb9$34cpj$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="708268602-1793013771-1755557527=:2770018" Injection-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 22:52:08 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="0e695199846c3d49f76a82200cd12fe3"; logging-data="3600807"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/Uy/fPAWepK4BLS2jTTi45OQqtCg/ZNPM/zyWdzDgx9A==" Cancel-Lock: sha1:iW5BxGAjDFGPmjrQHiE3BrTL/bk= In-Reply-To: <107vfb9$34cpj$1@dont-email.me> Xref: feeder.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:66878 List-Id: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --708268602-1793013771-1755557527=:2770018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 18 Aug 2025, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: |--------------------------------------| |"Ada is a strongly typed OO language."| |--------------------------------------| Dear Mister Kazakov: I am curious as to how such an elite expert computer scientist as yourself= =20 concluded so perversely. Professor Alan Curtis Kay professes: =E2=80=9CI=E2= =80=99ve been=20 shown some very, very strange-looking pieces of code over the years by=20 various people, including people in universities, that they have said is=20 OOP code, and written in an OOP language=E2=80=94and actually, I made up th= e term=20 object-oriented=E2=80=9D. Cf. Kay, A. C. (1997). The Computer Revolution Hasn=E2=80=99t Happened Yet. In = The=20 12th ACM SIGPLAN Conference on Object-Oriented Programming, Systems,=20 Languages, and Applications. HTTP://files.Squeak.org/Media/AlanKay/Alan\%20Kay\%20at\%20OOPSLA\%201997\%= 20-\%20The\%20computer\%20revolution\%20hasnt\%20happened\%20yet.ogg HTTP://blog.Moryton.net/2007/12/computer-revolution-hasnt-happened-yet.html HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Alan_Curtis_Kay/Kay_1997__I_made_up_the_te= rm_object-oriented,_and_I_can_tell_you_I_did_not_have_C++_in_mind.avi Professor Alan Curtis Kay says that Ada (while calling Ada =E2=80=9CADA=E2= =80=9D (sic)) is=20 not an OOP language but one of the =E2=80=9CBetter Old Things=E2=80=9D abou= t =E2=80=9CAbstract=20 Data Types which was really staying with an assignment-centered way of=20 thinking about programming=E2=80=9D. Contrast ADA_is_a_good_non-OOP_language_says_Alan_Curtis_Kay.JPG with HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Alan_Curtis_Kay/New_Things_OOP.JPG Cf. =E2=80=9COh, yeah, I had to sigh when Alan Kay, the keynote speaker, had a = slide with Ada spelled as "ADA".=E2=80=9D says Gary Kephart, =E2=80=9COOPSLA [was= Re: Tri-Ada=20 Soars; Hal eats crow -Reply]=E2=80=9D, Team-Ada, Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:16:31 -= 0700 HTTPS://LISTSERV.ACM.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ACMLPX.CGI?A2=3Dind9710&L=3DTEAM-ADA&P= =3DR1772 Cf. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Alan_Curtis_Kay/ADA_is_a_good_non-OOP_lang= uage_says_Alan_Curtis_Kay.JPG Cf. =E2=80=9CDate: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:33:31 -0800 To: Stefan Ram [removed for privacy] From=20Alan Kay [removed for privacy] Subject: Re: Clarification of "object-oriented" [. . .] The second phase of this was to finally understand LISP and then=20 using this understanding to make much nicer and smaller and more=20 powerful and more late bound understructures. [. . .] [. . .] [. . .] (I'm not against types, but I don't know of any type systems that=20 aren't a complete pain, so I still like dynamic typing.) OOP to me means only messaging, local retention and protection and=20 hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things. It=20 can be done in Smalltalk and in LISP. There are possibly other=20 systems in which this is possible, but I'm not aware of them.=E2=80=9D says HTTPS://userPage.FU-Berlin.De/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay_oop_de Precisely not Ada! Can you cite an authoritative prescriptive definition for =E2=80=9COO langu= age=E2=80=9D=20 which compels Professor Kay to confess that he must conclude that he=20 himself defined that Ada is an =E2=80=9COO language=E2=80=9D despite Ada ha= ving =E2=80=9Cany type=20 system=E2=80=9D and potentially not demanding messaging and allowing global= =20 variables and demanding compilation-time checking? I note that you say =E2= =80=9COO=20 language=E2=80=9D about a programming language (Ada), but Professor Kay say= s =E2=80=9COOP=20 language=E2=80=9D and Kay says that Ada is not an OOP language. So, do you= =20 theorize that Ada (i.e. a programming language) can be an =E2=80=9COO langu= age=E2=80=9D=20 without being an =E2=80=9COOP language=E2=80=9D? This really does not convi= nce me! Sorry! I mean no disrespect against you. Sincerely. --708268602-1793013771-1755557527=:2770018--