From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.182.44.194 with SMTP id g2mr4370920obm.33.1422473383429; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:29:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.73.170 with SMTP id m10mr39103obv.27.1422473383328; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:29:43 -0800 (PST) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feeder01.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!hl2no3837320igb.0!news-out.google.com!qk8ni18470igc.0!nntp.google.com!hl2no3169044igb.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:29:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1d4f22a2-0127-48d8-a097-287b9d982945@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=173.18.241.25; posting-account=HQu3XwoAAACgXAZiVLlGuYCkuhxw8i0w NNTP-Posting-Host: 173.18.241.25 References: <616ae348-41f6-446f-9c4b-0da8e398e75b@googlegroups.com> <1391828381444007928.494546nonlegitur-futureapps.invalid@reader80.eternal-september.org> <6b118519-c141-46fd-a017-f3af3809e5e0@googlegroups.com> <1d4f22a2-0127-48d8-a097-287b9d982945@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What is the best license to use for open source software? From: "Jedi Tek'Unum" Injection-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 19:29:43 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 5961 X-Received-Body-CRC: 655635417 Xref: news.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:24779 Date: 2015-01-28T11:29:43-08:00 List-Id: On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 7:16:08 PM UTC-6, David Botton wrote: > > With Ada it is an entirely different story. Vendors (mostly AdaCore) n= eed revenue on the tools themselves because that is all they have for asset= s. Their market is very small and not going to grow - they already have th= e customers who need it. >=20 > Actually, it is not that different at all. AdaCore does near zero R&D unl= ess requested and paid for (at least in large part) directly by a customer.= So the only difference is who does the actual development. With C/C++, etc= . the customers themselves do the dev work in the case of Ada it is AdaCore= generally being outsourced for the work to support some project and the Ad= aCore supporting the result for them and others interested. >=20 > AdaCore doesn't make money on the compiler (even they though are confused= about what actual product they are selling sometimes), their product is su= pport contracts, i.e. they are selling resources and talent. It is still selling resources/talent for a toolset. I'm not sure who the c= ustomers of C/C++ are that are doing the dev work. Certainly not the end-u= sers like me. Apple invests in their toolset simply because it needs it to= support its other development and 3rd party developers who reinforce their= ecosystem. Same for Oracle and anybody else selling platforms (including = RedHat). The fact that those toolsets are also available to everyone else = for free (maybe noncommercial use for some like Oracle) is just another thi= ng they have to do to support the ecosystem. Its the ecosystem, completely= separate from toolsets that they make their money on. These companies understand that these investments are necessary to make mon= ey elsewhere. Even OSX has become free (granted one is paying for it indir= ectly in higher hardware cost). Bottom line is there is no longer a direct link between a programming langu= age and revenue - except for Ada. And there appears to be no FOSS communit= y capability to evolve Ada on a broad scale. Which was my original point. = I suppose if AdaCore were to vanish that such a capability may emerge if n= othing else from the talent that is available as a result. > > Its disappointing that Ada is locked into this niche and shows little p= otential to break out. >=20 > It is not "locked" in and I don't believe it has little potential to brea= k out. If that was the case I would not have created Gnoga or continue towa= rds my goals of opening the Ada market beyond that niche, nor would many ot= hers bother with their efforts to make Ada available with out a virus. It is all a point of perspective - people in this forum are on the inside a= s it were. Those not already deep into it have a different view. I can get past the pain of learning a new language. I can even get past th= e pain of custom toolset generation or hunting/gathering the results of con= tributors here. What I can't get past at the moment is writing a lot of co= de (even personal hobby stuff) that may be problematic down the road. > > Most believe "good enough" is just that and refuse to spend anything on= something better. >=20 > Not 100% true, the issue is that speed to market today is more important = than initial quality for most non-safety critical systems. >=20 > That however is Ada's greatest value, minimal additional development time= for considerable improvements in quality and long term maintainability.=20 Having worked at a fortune-500 software company before retiring I can say t= here is 0 chance of them considering anything other than C/C++ (and some Ja= va). One could prove a 50% reduction in overall cost and defects and it wo= uldn't matter. Its all about being sheep and following the masses. > > Back to the race to the bottom... >=20 > I don't feel until you contribute time and product, "damnation" is your r= ight... but being from the US, say what you will and me and the posy workin= g to change things for the better despite the stumbling blocks and not just= muck raking will dance on your words when things materialize for the bette= r ;) >=20 > I challenge you to make a difference :) Sorry, I wasn't referring to Ada - I was referring to computing in general. I hope you are right but I don't think I'm going to stick around to help. = I've spent a career bloodying my head against immovable walls like this. L= ife is too short.