From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: 103376,3d76796391769899 X-Google-NewGroupId: yes X-Google-Attributes: gida07f3367d7,domainid0,public,usenet X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Path: g2news1.google.com!postnews.google.com!z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: zeta_no Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: References: <41d3829e-286d-4894-9140-31343bfa75ac@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com> <82y6fgxncs.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <82aarux3g3.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <2da7ba0b-0c45-4c7b-a523-b3438e43212a@j27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> <827hmsaf7z.fsf@stephe-leake.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.246.239.172 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: posting.google.com 1276459819 15622 127.0.0.1 (13 Jun 2010 20:10:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:10:19 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com; posting-host=216.246.239.172; posting-account=_PzQ6woAAACMmOTJ1acimpQRdkpIwcWU User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US) AppleWebKit/533.4 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/5.0.375.70 Safari/533.4,gzip(gfe) Xref: g2news1.google.com comp.lang.ada:11687 Date: 2010-06-13T13:10:18-07:00 List-Id: suite... sorry, my tab key, in the text, goes to the send button. Bad design, or setup.... Anyway. - Backward: In the intro, clearly specify that Ada can easily replace C/C++. (On various post, I often find C/C++ users contemptuous with Ada. Serve them their medicine) iv. In the beginner section: - Welcoming! - Emphasis on what Ada has that others don't. Task, Real-Time etc. Understandable explanation of the possibilities and reach. - Recommend a particular online Ada class (I find this class/ tutorial : http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/a95list.htm very good. Having source code that compiles well and illustrates all lessons is very productive. It should be rewrite to use Ada2005 and maybe a less verbose version for those who already have a programming background) -Then offer all the other tutorials in a separate link. This would give the impression of cohesion in the offer of what you consider good to learn from. - Refers to books with proper summary and direct links. If legally it can be done, direct links on amazon (look inside!). Up to date, good rated books. - Collection of other tutorials. 3D, GTK, embedded projects etc. (fun things!) - Nice code projects. Ex: gather the code of this project (if the author wants to open it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkbuShAu8Ic and make a companion document to go head first in the code, build the project and have the reward of running it at home. AdaCollision is available right now. Maybe something even simpler. - Suggestion for implication in the community. Translation, documentation, bindings etc. - Official documentation ARM etc. v. In the normal user section: - More advanced tutorial and code projects examples. (GPRbuild tutorial, MarteOS exploration tutorials, GLOBE3D tutorials, SDL tutorials, etc.) - Official documentation and resources. - A priority list of bindings, port, etc. - Things can be redundant when it comes to link to resources and other projects. Some people might first think they are not beginners and the other way around. I have other ideas, but for now, I should stop writing emails and start working on my Ada project AND a tutorial related to this work. Stephen Leake wrote: > Compared to what? What other open source language community is better > organized? Python appeared in 1991. It has bindings and projects for almost everything. It is used everywhere on open source projects. How much you bet Python is much more popular than Ada? How do you think they actually achieved that? I know it is not geared toward the same use, but the phenomenon is there, to the point that many people try to use it on segment of computer programming where it should not belong. You can even compile natively nowadays > I don't read the C newsgroups, not the C++ newsgroups. Are you saying > there is a lower percentage of newbies there having trouble with tools > not working? No, for sure newbies go through much more trouble with tools that do not work in C/C++, but the situation there is different. There is much more pressure, everywhere, for a new programmer to learn and master C/C++ that they will hardly account for loads of shortcomings. Once they become good, they get use to flaws and behave like dealing with those is normal. Some even go further by propagating the idea that fixing these issues is actually good as it defines once competences of understanding the language and the program at hand. Ada can't pretend to have the 'credentials' to force its newbie base to such a level of resilience. > Are we trying to attract serious programmers, or some other group of > people? When I'm looking at new people for my team, I ask if they are > comfortable with Emacs. If the answer is "tried it, didn't like it", > they are not likely to make it on my team. This sounds elitist. I am ok with that, but force is to admit that many people with a lot of potential fall in the hand of the C/C++ dragged by a rip current much more strong then the Ada promises. There is very good programmers out there that stays on MS windows all their life and don't even know about Emacs. > That's a very high bar. > I agree examples provided with tools should work. But examples of a good > tool working "flawlessly" with a bad tool is not so desireable. Ok, "flawlessly" was strong. They should definitely work though. Ludovic agreed too. > And many, many more bad C tutorials. The web is not run by any > organization; there is no way to "clean it up". There is no way to "clean up" internet but there is ways to enforce good directions and produce quality material that contrast even with the best C/C++ documents and projects. Thanks again for your time and concern. Olivier p.s: I switched Linux again. Debian "squeeze" is very neat and quite orthodox in the admin policies. I love it. Thanks for the good work. Also, I'll check how I can help on Ada Programming (wikibooks) once you confirm that most open source activity for Ada is going on there.