From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5048:: with SMTP id h8mr70681866qtm.190.1564258638452; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6289:: with SMTP id x9mr21519634otk.82.1564258638204; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.gegeweb.eu!gegeweb.org!usenet-fr.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!b26no8606829qtq.0!news-out.google.com!a5ni152qtd.0!nntp.google.com!b26no8606821qtq.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 13:17:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87dbe692-b66c-4ba9-ad4a-e933e817aef9@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.223.245; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.223.245 References: <01e1fc91-a20e-4b48-a10e-57d3935cd06c@googlegroups.com> <87dbe692-b66c-4ba9-ad4a-e933e817aef9@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Microsoft is considering moving to Rust; potential opportunity for Ada2020 From: Optikos Injection-Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 20:17:18 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:56976 Date: 2019-07-27T13:17:17-07:00 List-Id: On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 3:03:50 PM UTC-5, Optikos wrote: > On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 9:11:33 AM UTC-5, Shark8 wrote: > > On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 12:17:45 PM UTC-6, Optikos wrote: > > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-explore-using-rust > >=20 > > Of possible interest is this discussion on xlang: > > https://github.com/Microsoft/xlang/issues/226 >=20 > Shark8, thank you for engaging Microsoft on this topic; many valid & usef= ul critiques were raised. 16 days ago, it was closed due to the gist of th= e replies being philosophical design. I would recommend shifting strategie= s to the following: > 1) Find concrete examples of where slang's current approach to types will= misbehave or be less than fully useful or, best yet, be a total unmitigate= d disaster. > 2) Aim straight for the jugular vein in as tight of language as possible.= Give concrete ugliest vile examples in real code snippets in slang's favo= rite top-priority programming languages (e.g., Python, Javascript, C++). T= he examples should be nasty push-comes-to-shove total embarrassments of the= current approach to types in xlang interior between languages (and library= APIs thereof). > 3) Despite #2 being the worst bad news that we can find, #2's wording sho= uld always be polite, short & to-the-point, and service-with-a-smile, empha= sizing the wow-factor of in the tone of: =E2=80=9CGee, that looks like a ba= d situation that you & your type system got yourself into; how are you goin= g to get out of =E2=80=A2that=E2=80=A2 tight spot without Ada's subtype cap= abilities? Good luck with that! You realize that the solution to this pro= blem's path is already blazed in Ada's wise subtype system, don't you? Of = course, we could stand on the shoulders of Ada-giants that came before deca= des ago, instead of trying to reinvent the square-wheel badly.=E2=80=9D Bu= t not in that direct wording=E2=80=94more polite & oblique than that, but w= ith the same import & meaning. > 4) Enter each example as a new defect-issue number, instead of a rambling= litany-list of minor issues. Make xlang's leadership sweat each defect as= a stand-alone separate mess in a review meeting with their peers & bosses,= rather than simply deftly closing the issue as off-topic =E2=80=9Cdesign= =E2=80=9D. Dang autocorrect! xlang not slang above in a few places. 5) Fork a few of xlang's individual work-products here & there (e.g., a des= ign note) to show them as one-offs what the Ada-esque better way would look= like concretely, precisely. If Microsoft fails to follow Ada's wiser lead= in xlang's type system, then really fork all of xlang to create an Ada-cen= tric better way of interoping with all the other mainstream languages.