From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,3885b7fd66a1db28 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-12-22 15:09:48 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.bri.connect.com.au!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail From: "David Wright" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Why is Ada a good choice for an ambitious beginner to programming Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:02:31 +1000 Organization: University of Queensland Message-ID: References: <5ad0dd8a.0212210251.63b87aba@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d-237-90.stlucia.uq.net.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1040598586 15471 203.101.237.90 (22 Dec 2002 23:09:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 2002 23:09:46 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:32208 Date: 2002-12-22T23:09:46+00:00 List-Id: "Bill Findlay" wrote > > > Actually, if the interest is in learning to program, > rather than learning to use a specific toolset, > then neither IDEs nor debuggers are necessary, > or even particularly useful to a beginner. > Hi Bill, Of all the extremely useful advice to date (thanks everyone!) this concise remark reached out and grabbed me by the throat! If by this you are suggesting that 'programming' should mean more than the ability to know and use the elements of 'a' language and an IDE, but rather should subsume a thorough understanding the central abstractions or constructs (e.g., looping, arrays, recursion, pointers etc) which characterise the various language 'genres' (e.g., logical, imperative, functional, object oriented etc), then we are very much on the same wave length. Perhaps I am a perverse recalcitrant but it has always bemused me to read well meaning contributors in various newsgroups tell self-teaching newcomers to "just choose a language and learn it thoroughly". I would have thought that a preliminary step would be to delve broadly but thoroughly into the particular 'personalities' of the available generic styles of programming (logical, imperative...) before choosing and committing to a specific genre, language and IDE. Do we ever marry without dating several different people first? ;P How can the average C++ programmer intelligently discuss (or deride) Prolog (for example) if they don't know its underlying premises? I wonder whether this comparative approach means that we have moved beyond programming into the domain of computer science. But if that is true, I am unaware of any formal courses that have as their principal raison d'etre a 'thorough' (not cursory or introductory) exposition of the comparative differences and merits of the main styles of programming. I stand to be correct here. I detect the mutterings of those who (rightly) propound the educational theories of 'active learning', 'constructivism', 'hands on, minds on' etc: "To learn how to program, they need to program, they need to code and code some more!" Correct. But that's not my point. First, we (I) need to explore the nature of programming and its different styles. This can be done 'actively' by thinking 'actively', by reading 'actively' and by actively discussing these issues with likeminded searchers. So yes Bill, "neither IDEs nor debuggers are necessary, or even particularly useful to a beginner". First things first. However, I have yet to encounter any comprehensive and comprehensible resources treating the comparisons outlined above. Judging from the abundance of erudite minds starring in this newsgroup alone, this (seeming) paucity cannot be due to insufficient cross-generic mastery. It seems that for many if not most, learning to code, like the prospect of consummation, causes one to be lose patience and rush in; both ventures, perhaps, have a certain mindless sex appeal. Bill, do correct me if I have misconstrued what you had intended to say. I would also be keen to hear any elaborations you may have. Thanks for being there. ;P David Wright Nice tweak of the topic. I had tried to minimise the waffle and hype that can contaminate advocational rants.