From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=5.0 tests=AC_FROM_MANY_DOTS,BAYES_00 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,f51e93dacd9c7fca X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-06-18 20:07:04 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.251.151.101!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!psiuk-p2!psiuk-p3!uknet!psiuk-n!news.pace.co.uk!nh.pace.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Marin David Condic" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: status of Ada STL? Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:14:25 -0400 Organization: Posted on a server owned by Pace Micro Technology plc Message-ID: References: <3D0D18D5.2020601@telepath.com> <4519e058.0206170611.260a3951@posting.google.com> <4519e058.0206180630.b6ef8cd@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-200-133.miami.pace.co.uk X-Trace: nh.pace.co.uk 1024413267 28094 136.170.200.133 (18 Jun 2002 15:14:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@news.cam.pace.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 2002 15:14:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:26344 Date: 2002-06-18T15:14:27+00:00 List-Id: "Ted Dennison" wrote in message news:4519e058.0206180630.b6ef8cd@posting.google.com... > > I've been here long enough to have heard just about every theory there > is. Frankly, I don't think the syntax theories hold any water at all. > The programming environment theories are a smidge better, but no more. > As one of the advocates of better programming environments (libraries, IDEs, etc.) I'd want to slightly recharacterize the theory as you describe it. My contention would be that these days, libraries and IDEs are the price of admission - not a guarantee of success. If you *do* have them, people might still ignore and dismiss the language for a whole host of other reasons. If you *don't* have them, you can't come to the table and compete because of the business case against it - "Ada may be cool and I'd really love to use it, but I get *sooo* much leverage with this library, IDE, GUI builder, etc. that I can't afford the cost of going with Ada." (I've known plenty of people who knew & liked Ada who *did* switch to other languages because of the leverage.) > The main reason hordes of people don't switch to Ada is that > programmers are a very conservative lot. Given a choice, they fight > hard to use the language they are most familiar with. Programming > managers are even more so, since they aren't technically involved > enough to have any judgement point other than past use. People comming > here saying that Ada use would take off if only it used syntax items > from their own favorite other language are just further examples of > this principle. > Amen. Once a language gets entrenched in the mind of the programmer or in the investment of the company, it is going to be *real* hard to change anything. That's why it is important for the Ada-philes to develop software or products that use Ada. The more of it that is out there, the more Ada becomes "entrenched". > If we look at past successes, what builds language bases isn't > wonderful syntax, but rather heavy marketing campaigns (with hopefully > a germ of truth under all the BS). If we want usage to skyrocket, then > we need to somehow foster the (generally self-fufilling) impression > that Ada is a "hot" language. Its a bit tough to do that with no big > moneybags company like Sun or Microsoft behind us. When someone comes > in here and starts an "Ada's syntax is all wrong" thread, if anything > its counterproductive. > Marketing got people to open their wallets and give up their hard-earned cash in exchange for a rock in a cardboard box. They did it in great numbers, too. A strong marketing campaign would do a lot for Ada - but who would fund it? That isn't the only reason languages flourish, but it is one of the reasons it happens in recent years. (I don't recall ATT investing heavily in a "Use C" campaign - but they did give away an OS that was written in C and had a compiler come along for the ride.) But when you get down to it, programmers, managers and institutions do *not* conduct surveys of the syntax of various languages and decide "I'll stop using what I already am using to start using this new language because it has this wonderful, spiffy, scientifically demonstrated to be superior syntax!!!" They *might* do it if the language (no matter how butt-ugly you make the syntax) offers them some significant leverage in getting their job done or offers some significant capabilities they can exploit in producing better (more marketable) products. What would convince a number of programmers to learn and use a new language is if they are being offered a *job* that utilized it. For that to happen, you need companies to exist that are building their products with Ada inside. Its not likely that companies with existing products that have "C++ Inside" or "Java Inside" are going to change their products, so the jobs will have to come from new startups - either internal to our existing companies or external as entrepreneurial endeavors. > Don't let this stop you from implementing your Pythada preprocessor > though. Just don't expect it to be used by anyone but big Python fans > new to Ada, very few of which are hanging out in this newsgroup to be > recruited. Perhaps you would have more luck getting support from a > Python newsgroup. Its always possible to build a front-end and hook it up to Gnat. If that's the silver bullet to get Ada adopted by "The Masses", its not that difficult or expensive to prove that theory out. But I just don't see tinkering with the syntax as an "Official" change to the language when there is no evidence that anything is "broke" with it. It would be just way too disruptive (even if the old syntax still worked) to the whole industry and for what gain? MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com