From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: 103376,699cc914522aa7c4 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,UTF8 Path: g2news2.google.com!news2.google.com!news.germany.com!news.osn.de!diablo2.news.osn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newspeer1.se.telia.net!se.telia.net!masternews.telia.net.!newsb.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn?= Persson Subject: Re: Wasteful internationalization Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada References: <_wrvh.30646$E02.12547@newsb.telia.net> User-Agent: KNode/0.10.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Message-ID: Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:59:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.250.96.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsb.telia.net 1170532786 83.250.96.174 (Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:59:46 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:59:46 CET Organization: Telia Internet Xref: g2news2.google.com comp.lang.ada:8897 Date: 2007-02-03T19:59:46+00:00 List-Id: Markus E Leypold wrote: > Look, Björn -- I think this wall uncalled for. _I_ remember times when > it was considered part of the netiquette to use only 7-Bit-ASCII, > because you couldn't expect everybody haiving the latest and greatest > software. There were various Unices in various states of coming to > grips with non-7-bit characters and there was VMS and not all software > was readily available for all systems. That's a good approach. For a while, not forever. You can avoid using a new standard as long as it's brand new, but what's the point in defining new standards if nobody ever starts using the new capabilities? The protocols are carefully designed to be as backwards compatible as possible. Non-MIME messages are assumed to be in ASCII, precisely to let Larry keep posting with his old newsreader. Well-behaved email and Usenet programs also use the simplest encoding possible for each message – ASCII when ASCII is enough, and UTF-8 only when Latin-1 won't do – to be backwards compatible whenever possible, and they use UTF-8 instead of UCS-2 or UCS-4 so that Larry will at least be able to read most of the message. This way, users with old software can still participate within the limits of their software, and the rest of us can use the characters we need when we need them. > And I would like to add: That really hasn't changed in principle. 5 > years ago I could read almost every mail I got. Then mails with > 8859-15 became more common (Euro sign) and I couldn't read them. And > then UTF-8 mails abounded. Without me doing anything wrong, my news > reader slowly decayed into obsolescence. > > I hate it when that happens. I hate it too, but the problem was with the old software, not with the new one. MIME and Unicode solved some very real problems caused by lack of forethought in the past, and the only long-term solution was to upgrade the software. > Tell you what: VT102. It's a hardware problem, not a software one. You > seem to be missing some historical perspective :-). "Emulator" sounds like software to me, but that's irrelevant anyway. Larry could get adequate software *and* hardware if he wanted to. It's not like it would be expensive. Hardware capable of running MIME-aware newsreaders can be found in dumps. He doesn't want to, and that's fine with me, but then he must accept that his equipment lacks some modern features. > Did he force you? Or did he just inform you that he can't see the 'Pi' > and probably won't see it ever. You can ignore his information, I > think. Of course he has no means to literally force me. He's trying to *persuade* everyone to go back to ASCII. It was not just information. He stated explicitly that everyone should use ASCII. His first post looked like he didn't know why he didn't see the right character, and I tried to be helpful, not remembering that it was Larry who complained to a newbie who used UTF-8 in May last year. I'll probably ignore him next time he complains to me, but I may intervene if he attacks newbies again. > BTW: I have Gnus on a rather current Linux system. I couldn't see the > Pi, too. This happens sometimes and do you know what: I don't read > posts I can't display or decode (same with web pages). I do the same. I don't have Flash installed (because I can't stand web pages full of animated ads). There have been a few Flash applets that were important enough that I installed the Flash plugin, watched the applet and removed Flash again, but when people send out links to funny clips on Youtube and the like I usually don't watch them, thinking they probably aren't worth all the trouble. But I don't complain about it! Especially not i public forums. I have made my choice and I accept the consequences. I don't try to make people stop posting Flash clips just because watching them is too much trouble for me. -- Björn Persson PGP key A88682FD omb jor ers @sv ge. r o.b n.p son eri nu