From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fdb77,4873305131bf4d94 X-Google-Attributes: gidfdb77,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,4873305131bf4d94 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 10261c,90121986704b5776 X-Google-Attributes: gid10261c,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,4873305131bf4d94 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 10c950,90121986704b5776 X-Google-Attributes: gid10c950,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,4873305131bf4d94 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: billg@jk.pst.com Subject: Re: Your english sucks, mine is better. Date: 1997/12/01 Message-ID: #1/1 X-Deja-AN: 294321142 References: <34557f2b.1934172@news.mindspring.com> <65iclc$cms$5@darla.visi.com> <65p7v8$f0j@netra.montana.edu> Organization: IDT Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.lang.pascal.ansi-iso,comp.lang.pascal.misc Date: 1997-12-01T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <65p7v8$f0j@netra.montana.edu>, ljelmore@montana.campus.mci.net says... > >My guess is the person was, in most instances, not lying but rather > >"believed" he/she could do it (shine; take a short term risk to realize > >longer term results, for example) given the opportunity. Given enough > >time, I'll bet they could have too. > Yeah, right. Many times, these are the same people who cheated in school to > get through with higher grades (or even to get through at all). You seem to > be under the persistent delusion that all incompetent, and/or dishonest, > and/or evil people end up as managers, CEO's and shareholders, while all > employees are at worst misunderstood angels. What a crock. In general, management is more corrupt and unethical in practice than it could be. The problem stems from the fact that most people are not followers, so management science has found ways to manipulate people into doing things they would normally chose not to. The foundation principles are flawed so that's why the reality sometimes rears its ugly head. The only people that work well together are those that are "similar" (values, status etc). People just don't want to have your way forced upon them. Many managers, protecting their ground (elite etc), accept that raping is an acceptable practice, though. > I wonder just how > much real-world experience you have? As an employee in some real low-end > jobs, I've worked with some other employees who were scum of the earth. > People who lied, cheated, stole, pawned off as much work as possible on > their co-workers, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Somehow they got the perception that those were the principles of survival. And that there is no hope. Who do you think gave them that way of thinking? > > > Other times visions of what is > >required, agreed to and what the potentials are, are seriously > >misinterpretted by one or both parties. Nothing to resort to name > >calling or ill feelings about however. It's just learning. It takes a > >pretty "big" person to give someone real opportunity for achievement, > >self-worth etc. Sometimes doing good may cost you something in the short > >term. > > So you'd be willing to allow managers the chance to learn, and would be a > "big" person and allow them the opportunity for achievement, self-worth, > etc.? After all, there are no bad managers, just bad employees who can't see > the "big picture" and blame all their problems, including the fact that it > rained on their picnic, on bad management... No, a bad manager-in-training has the potential to do too much damage and the damage is done _to_ people. What works for technical activities doesn't apply to management. Those that have to learn management are usually the ones who learn how to manipulate. I don't believe one can be trained to be a good manager as they are born not made. Of course, in reality now, the manipulative and deceptive manager is what is being solicited many times. The one to do the dirty work for the officers. Management in practice (sigh) is more the unwritten oppressive science than anything else. Management should be only applied when asked for or agreed upon otherwise it restricts freedom. > > Get real. People are people, whether employee or manager or shareholder. > Some are bad, some are good, most are a bit of each. And all are just products of the environment. An environment that you perhaps helped create and proliferate. I'm dissappointed with people sometimes too. But mostly with those who _knowingly_ chose wrong over right, I have a hard time forgiving those. billg