From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-13 14:56:03 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.bu.edu!newshost.Dartmouth.EDU!not-for-mail From: "FM" Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: [OT] Software Engineering at 14 (was: Re: Beginner's Language?) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:55:21 -0400 Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA Message-ID: <9dmscr$3cq$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9ddfv2$gl3$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dh21o$i8crr$2@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dhtr9$59d$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9djhj4$irbvv$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dk70r$4gv$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dkbiq$j2ver$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dkicf$5c$1@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU> <9dlf33$i3ggi$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: north-dhcp-235.dartmouth.edu X-Trace: merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU 989787355 3482 129.170.146.235 (13 May 2001 20:55:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@Dartmouth.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 May 2001 20:55:55 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7466 comp.lang.lisp:9967 comp.lang.smalltalk:9641 comp.lang.functional:5606 comp.lang.scheme:3773 comp.lang.perl:2715 Date: 2001-05-13T20:55:55+00:00 List-Id: "Andreas Krennmair" wrote: > FM wrote: > > Lovely assertion. How do you know? Even worse than using test > > scores or grades to evaluate kids is putting blind trust in > > evaluations based on those measures. This is only tangentially > That's experience. The school now exists since the early 80's, and many of > the teachers already teach there for almost the same time. Experience doesn't mean anything without a feedback mechanism, which doesn't really exist for teachers, and insofar as it exists, it's greatly flawed because of their influence. > > related to the original point but if you think you can judge > > 14 year-olds purely based on their grades, well, I hope you > > don't become a teacher. > How else do you want to, if not on their grades? That would be interesting. > And don't think measuring by social competence comes too short. Why do you have to judge 14-year olds? Let'em be what they are. My objection was your logic that if someone has bad grades, then he must not be talented. It is completely backward. > > > Of course they would, but in school they're supported and trained by > > > professionals, either having several years of experience in the industry or > > > being respectable computer science professors. > > > > I think the better test of someone's talent and motivation is > > whether one needs this type of support and/or training. > How do you want to teach yourself project development? You obviously need > a class. The whole thing isn't that easy, so you need some advice, actually > a lot of advice. Because of that reason the subject "project development" is > taught for 3 years. Whether you find something easy or not is completely irrelevant. If you mean certain specific techniques used to manage software engineering projects, yes you can learn without a class. If you mean some practical exposure to those techniques within a social setting, yes you can learn without a class. > > Perhaps I should've said "trivial" or "of no theoretical or > > practical significance." In any case, there's absolutely nothing > Ahm, the students who did that _are_ now writing realtime applications for > a company. So it has practical significance: the students had the possibility > in school to concentrate on the things they were interested in by doing it > as a project. The result is SkyOS, and they've learned quite a lot, more than > what is taught in the subject "operating system", which is mostly based on > Tanenbaum's book (not the Minix book, the other, more theoretical one). To paraphrase, it was a great *exercise*. I hope you knew what I meant by *theoretical* or *practical* significance. Dan.