From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-10 01:00:13 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au!not-for-mail From: bromage@goaway.cc.monash.edu.au (Andrew Bromage) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? Date: 10 May 2001 17:57:41 +1000 Organization: Monash Uni Distribution: world Message-ID: <9ddhll$b8o@goaway.cc.monash.edu.au> References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> X-Trace: towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au 989481463 32065 130.194.250.20 (10 May 2001 07:57:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@monash.edu.au Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7437 comp.lang.lisp:9905 comp.lang.smalltalk:9670 comp.lang.functional:5609 comp.lang.scheme:3760 comp.lang.perl:2761 Date: 2001-05-10T17:57:41+10:00 List-Id: G'day all. markv@peewee.telescopemaking.org (Mark VandeWettering) writes: >First of all, precisely what >feature of perl is similar to natural languages? You might want to read this: http://www.wall.org/~larry/natural.html >Second of all, why >do we think that natural languages are good? Well, they're not "good". Natural languages are morally neutral. But the fact that we're both using natural languages right now seems to indicate that they are pragmatically useful. Of course, if we wanted to speak more precisely, we could use jargon vocabulary, or impose structure on our language where it is needed (e.g. pseudocode), or if we were in the same room, we could even use gestures or draw diagrams on a whiteboard. In any case, we're just supplementing the natural language with something else. >Mathematics implements entire languages specialized >to their domain just so that they can express the ideas they have clearly >and concisely. Which is precisely why my preferred first language is something more like Haskell. If the student is already familiar with mathematical notation, Haskell comes naturally. Rather than spending brainshare on learning an unfamiliar syntax (and let's face it, Lisp/Scheme has an unfamiliar syntax, even if it is a simple one), the student can spend their energy on learning programming. Cheers, Andrew Bromage