From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, REPLYTO_WITHOUT_TO_CC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-09 11:26:32 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.stealth.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!l1462p05.dipool.highway.telekom.AT!not-for-mail From: a.krennmair@aon.at (Andreas Krennmair) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? Date: 9 May 2001 18:24:26 GMT Organization: Church Of Tux Message-ID: <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> Reply-To: a.krennmair@aon.at NNTP-Posting-Host: l1462p05.dipool.highway.telekom.at (62.46.246.165) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 989432666 18384046 62.46.246.165 (16 [37382]) X-Orig-Path: a.krennmair X-Signature-Color: green X-Registered-Linux-User: 142096 X-Die-wahre-Distro: Debian X-Signature-License: GPL User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.0 (Linux) Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7393 comp.lang.lisp:9880 comp.lang.smalltalk:9638 comp.lang.functional:5596 comp.lang.scheme:3742 comp.lang.perl:2739 Date: 2001-05-09T18:24:26+00:00 List-Id: Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > "Marin David Condic" writes: > > > > If you are familiar with Lisp, try this: Write a small program to read in a > > couple of numbers from a keyboard, do some math with them and print the > > result to the screen. > Gosh, how much simpler as in Lisp can it be? No declarations, no > puzzling about counting probably etc etc. The problem is that Lisp is in no way similar to a natural language. And natural language can be understood easier than some functional, theoretical stuff with a unique concept like Lisp. Don't get me wrong, Lisp is a great language, and I personally find it quite exciting as four year Pascal and two year C/C++ programmer, but it's hardly usable for teaching, because it is so unique (well, you _could_ to functional programming in C, but it would be considered bad style). I currently go to an Austrian school where mostly programming/CS/software engineering-related things are taught (it's for 5 years, and you start at an age of 14), and we started programming in Pascal. I was bored in the beginning, because I already knew Pascal, but then the teacher explained me that they chose to teach Pascal because it is so easy to read and to understand and it still has so many things common with other languages. Of course, in the second year, you do some Lisp and Prolog, which confuses quite a lot of people, but after a week or so, they usually get it (at least I did with Lisp :). > > Now look at it. Could a neophite with literally *zero* > > experience in programming computers read it and stand a chance of > > understanding what it does or how it does it? > > yes, yes for my comment, see above. Lisp has hardly anything in common with natural languages. Or could you express "My girlfriend's name is Suzy and her age is 17" as readable as this in Lisp: $girlfriend{'name'} = "Suzy"; $girlfriend{'age'} = 17; Of course, this is not the best example, since Perl has a syntax that is not the optimum for beginners. > > Could a neophite duplicate it > > easily or modify it to do something different? > yes No. Only after understanding the fundamental concepts of Lisp. > >Is it intuitively obvious to > > even the most casual observer how to make a similar program? > yes No. See answer before. :) > A beginner is not biased in any way and so it doe not matter what > he/she started from. If he starts with Lisp; C, Java looks messy. If It _does_ matter. Beginners can easily get frustrated because of the sometimes confusing syntax. BTW, I wouldn't recommend starting with Java or C/C++, either. I'd recommend and teach (if I were a teacher :) some Wirth language, because they're designed especially for teaching basics of programming. Best regards, Andreas Krennmair -- void strncpy(char *p, char *q, int n){while(n--){*p++=*q++;}}