From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,MSGID_RANDY autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,4eb65fab6deaa097 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: Robert Dewar Subject: Re: Lack of Mature Tools (was: Lockheed Martin, Green Hills, etc.) Date: 2000/04/26 Message-ID: <8e6n6i$qo8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Deja-AN: 615871167 References: <4eaJ4.23498$hh2.538870@news.flash.net> <8d4lpa$ffu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8d531v$vcr$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8d57mo$4d9@chronicle.concentric.net> <390472E9.E0A17BC6@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com> <8e5hr4$imt$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <87wvll7a5h.fsf@think.mihalis.net> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x34.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 205.232.38.14 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 26 12:25:05 2000 GMT X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrobert_dewar Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (OS/2; I) Date: 2000-04-26T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <87wvll7a5h.fsf@think.mihalis.net>, Chris Morgan wrote: > Are you really suggesting that if I see an announcement of a new > public release of gnat on comp.lang.ada and I then download a file > with that version number from cs.nyu.edu in /pub/gnat that it may > somehow be corrupted? The wrong file? Altered by random strangers? Probably not. The point I am making is that Ada Core Technologies provides no kind of guarantees of any kind. We have definitely seen cases where releases have been altered (e.g. by omitting documentation). If you are comfortable with taking responsibility yourself for this possibility, then that's your decision. > This seems like a surprising claim to me. I'll bet you (i.e. > ACT) can be pretty sure that those bits correspond exactly to > the ACT build of that public version just with a sum(1). I would not be willing to make that statement, given that we have seen counter examples. Also people often do not clearly realize what Ada Core Technologies provides and what other volunteers provide. We still get bug reports (and even angry complaints sometimes) from users of the DOS version for example even though that has nothing whatsoever to do with us. > If you published checksums on > www.gnat.com everybody else could be fairly sure as well, no matter > where they actually downloaded the file from. Better checks are also > easily provided (e.g. MD5) as seen on many other open source or free > software projects. We don't publish such material, because this would make it even more suggestive that we are taking responsibility for the integrity of stuff on the net over which we have no control. > Not doing that is perfectly fine, but claiming the resultant > lack of verifiability leads to authenticity problems seems > very weaselly to me. Well as I say, if you are comfortable using unsupported bits and taking responsibility yourself for authenticity, then you do not have a problem. My point was just to make it clear to people that if they follow this route, they are taking responsibility for these issues. > The value I found in having an ACT support contract pretty > much started flowing after I got the bits myself and installed > them. Not quite sure what the above sentence means, but in any case to repeat the point I am making, most organizations prefer to use supported commercial software. If that is the case in your organization and you are interested in using GNAT, then you should evaluate GNAT Professional on the same basis as any other commercial Ada technology. If your organization is comfortable using unsupported software and taking responsibility for obtaining a version of GNAT that meets your needs, then that's fine with us, just so long as you realize that we make no guarantees in this case. Indeed, the classical Free Software disclaimer definitely applies in this case: 11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. 12. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. I reemphasize that Ada Core Technologies has no objections to you using the public version of GNAT for any purpose you like. We only recommend the use of the public version for educational and research purposes, because we don't recommend the use of unsupported software (certainly that's our own internal policy at Ada Core Technologies). The only issue here is that everyone is clear. We very often get people who are quite confused on this issue. Back in September, I had a "Y2K Compliance Officer" from some organization literally screaming at me because we refused to give Y2K certification for the public version "WELL WHO CAN GIVE THIS CERTIFICATION THEN?" "no one that I know of." "WELL THIS IS AN ACT PRODUCT RIGHT?" "no, that's incorrect" More interchange, getting nowhere, and no doubt he ended up deciding that Ada Core Technologies did not stand behind its products :-) Ada Core Technologies is committed to continued releasing of public versions of GNAT, including full easily installable binary releases. But these public products are NOT products of our company, merely something we make available on an as-is basis for those who can make use of unsupported software. Robert Dewar Ada Core Technologies Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.