From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: 103376,3d76796391769899 X-Google-NewGroupId: yes X-Google-Attributes: gida07f3367d7,domainid0,public,usenet X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,UTF8 Path: g2news2.google.com!news3.google.com!feeder.news-service.com!85.214.198.2.MISMATCH!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ludovic Brenta Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Improving the first contact with Ada Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:25:18 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Message-ID: <87y6eiohup.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org> References: <41d3829e-286d-4894-9140-31343bfa75ac@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com> <82y6fgxncs.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <82aarux3g3.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <2da7ba0b-0c45-4c7b-a523-b3438e43212a@j27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> <87k4qsapgr.fsf_-_@ludovic-brenta.org> <096e5f19-ed4d-4c02-b889-88856ac0d5c7@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: mx01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="ckvrDv1OVaG0ymwWIoBzZw"; logging-data="27578"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18JwRiHXhTQOPVarvrdMP1/" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:dvUTJbescSkBozC99WQi8xMzSgs= sha1:PXmVcWS7AmVsEo1tDxxI+a4Y/yk= Xref: g2news2.google.com comp.lang.ada:12656 Date: 2010-06-13T21:25:18+02:00 List-Id: zeta_no writes on comp.lang.ada: > On May 24, 6:45 pm, Ludovic Brenta wrote: > >> Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How >> would you suggest improving them? >> >> Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you >> learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or >> do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts" >> to guide you? > > I should not point anyone by referring directly to their tutorials, > but let say a came across a least 3 tutorials about concurrency > programming with Ada that falls short of providing meaningful insight > on the true capabilities of Ada in this field. They present task, > delays, guard etc but don't put all these concepts in 'imaging' > situations, which resumes the power of the tasking model. Those did > not referred to typical uses of Ada, real problem solving that would > enlighten its non naive usage. The offer for tutorials that presents > a classical introduction to Ada as being a general programming > language, with enhanced capabilities (tasking model, real-time annex > etc), is too important. Many like me would benefit from more > specialized tutorials, like let say a middle size embedded project, > covering simply, many or all the main concepts provided by Ada and > their sound usage. > > To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial > as something that can be quite long and involving. Rarely you can > find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a > quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master > thesis and a final year thesis. It treats a known subject (compared > with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding > (compared with some final year thesis). These documents are great > starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit > austere books to sink in. Ah, so your problem comes from the prejudice that books must be austere (forgive me but I have a bad habit of poking where it hurts, without being too shy about it). John Barnes' book[1] is anything *but* austere; I highly recommend it. Also there was a thread here on comp.lang.ada this week with several good suggestions of books about Ada tasking. Also, have you looked at the free online book "Ada 95: The Craft Of Object-Oriented Programming"[2] by John English? Chapter 19 covers tasking. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ada-2005-John-Barnes/dp/0321340787 [2] http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je/adacraft/ Granted, these are not tutorials; they are books. If the only problem with books is that they are austere, then surely there must be a way to turn them into cheery tutorials? >> It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In >> particular I would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the >> first contact a newbie can have with Ada. > > Oh yes, I have ideas! > > 1. From my searches, it seems most people active with Ada are > registered and composed article on Ada Programming (Wikibooks). Tell > me if I am wrong? You are wrong. Unfortunately, most of the Ada programmers are inactive on the Internet; they work in stealth (or even secret) mode. What you see on the Internet is perhaps 1% of all Ada programmers. In my view, this is unfortunate but I can't do anything to change that. > 2. A stable Ada home should be enforced (it confuses the newbs not to > know where this month, this year you guys are). Involved people will > change. Their effort are precious and you don't want 'tribal' data. > Wikibooks being an independent Wikimedia Foundation project has low > risk of vanishing in foreseeable future and anyone can add centralized > efforts. That's what you get for being an open ISO standard :) Anyone with enough understanding (or misunderstandings...) of the language is free to start their own web site; this has happened several times in the past. I consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of Ada (it has been so for many years). Other people may have different opinions but, at least, there is some *funding* for maintaining this site, so it has some semblance of guarantee for longevity. [3] http://www.adaic.com > 3. Gather all interesting internet links on 'tribal' Ada material to > this page. Next post by newbs asking for Ada resources, be coherent > and send it to a single HOME. That's what I do all the time, to people who ask here on comp.lang.ada. I cannot do anything about web forums, sorry. > 4. Face lift, in the form of reorganization not visual style, to Ada > Programming (Wikibooks)! [...] OK, these are more specific and can result in tangible improvements. Thanks for that. -- Ludovic Brenta.