From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Thread: a07f3367d7,3d76796391769899 X-Google-Attributes: gida07f3367d7,public,usenet X-Google-NewGroupId: yes X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Path: g2news2.google.com!news1.google.com!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ludovic Brenta Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Improving the first contact with Ada (was: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:45:40 +0200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Message-ID: <87k4qsapgr.fsf_-_@ludovic-brenta.org> References: <41d3829e-286d-4894-9140-31343bfa75ac@o12g2000vba.googlegroups.com> <82y6fgxncs.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <82aarux3g3.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <2da7ba0b-0c45-4c7b-a523-b3438e43212a@j27g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 22:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: mx03.eternal-september.org; posting-host="upFsF0xhD85Qtx/JQ+ZAvg"; logging-data="22885"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19y+OkEbxPLBzf68Gp7AMO6" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Q+dtbj23+qzVpmKyqYjBXsl57KM= sha1:3LFMP3wlvVIWscU/C4yTPGr2MTA= Xref: g2news2.google.com comp.lang.ada:11943 Date: 2010-05-25T00:45:40+02:00 List-Id: zeta_no writes: [...] > Note: I don't want to be unpleasant, but I have to criticized the Ada > community for not being well organized. I see a desire from the main > actors to popularize Ada among developpers. You just have to look at > the videos, conferences and news from AdaCore that convey the idea > that Ada is strong and far from dead. I think there is really place > for improvement, mostly on first contact with new developers to come. > Compared to the C/C++ community, Ada really needs fresh blood and it > is not with the kind of experience I went though on Linux that new > people will get interested by Ada. I tell you, lot of my schoolmates > would not even have passed the Ubuntu problems and get back directly > to C++ with absolutely no desire to maybe, one day, check back at Ada. I have to commend you in return for your persistence and your willingness to offer feedback. > Nevertheless, I have to say that I find the integration on MS Windows > very good. > > - First, one thing we can't argue. Check on Distrowatch, Ubuntu is > THE most popular distribution, by far. I know a lot of serious > programmer won't run on Ubuntu, but nevertheless, right after MS > windows, the fresh blood is on Ubuntu, nowhere else. That's OK, users of Ubuntu will get the Debian packages, which you said were the way to go :) Of course they will always lag behind Debian unstable. Of course Ubuntu might introduce bugs that are not present in Debian. That's what people should expect when using a derivative rather than the original; no surprises there. OTOH, if your development team uses a mix of different operating systems, GNAT GPL is definitely the way to go. > - Second, these days, in every engineering schools we learn C++ and or > Java. So samples and methods involving mixing Ada with C++ and Java > code should work flawlessly. I agree but unfortunately, although I am an active member of the Ada community, I don't have the manpower (or skills, or need for that matter) to improve the situation myself. Maybe you can contribute? Writing a tutorial and reporting bugs precisely and formally (e.g. http://bugs.debian.org/582219) would be a very good start. > - Third, there is few, and a lot of bad tutorials around the web. > Again, my schoolmates and I ALWAYS go by tutorials first. It is > easier, it gets the job done faster, gives an overview of the tool and > helps figure out what can be done with it. (Check what the Python > community achieved) Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad? How would you suggest improving them? Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials? I mean, do you learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts" to guide you? > - Finaly, I understand the community is small and maybe already makes > its best to keep Ada alive but I think it is important to give you the > feedback of a newbie, because, I am sure, most of the time, people > like me just vanish without telling you why they have been put off by > Ada. It is not Ada the problem, it's the presentation of the > technology which fails. It is OK to vent your frustrations in a general way -- your frustrations are, IMHO, legitimate -- but please understand that this does not help "the Ada community" much. > I hope all of this was constructive and I'll try to help others in > time, when my knowledge of Ada will be sufficient. It would be constructive if you could be more specific. In particular I would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the first contact a newbie can have with Ada. -- Ludovic Brenta.