* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! [not found] <7s5285$3f4$1@hiline.shinbiro.com> @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Wes Groleau [not found] ` <37E6B403.3AB0F09F@averstar.com> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > I am studying PL , comparing several killing languages. Not sure what "killing" translates to in your language. In English, "killer" is slang for something very desirable. That would describe Ada in the minds of many. But Ada is definitely NOT "dead" (killed). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
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* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! [not found] ` <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com> @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Jean-Etienne Doucet 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Jean-Etienne Doucet @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 843 bytes --] In article <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com>, Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: | | I am wondering if Ada is unique among ANSI/ISO standardized languages with | respect to the ready availability of the standards on-line? I don't think I've | seen, for example, the ANSI-C or the C++ standard as a freely available download not to mention the brand new ASIS standard :-( | - much less having an on-line version in hypertext. It certainly makes | learning/using Ada easier since you can download the standard without even having | to cough up a credit card number ;-) | | MDC _______________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Etienne Doucet / LAAS-CNRS / Toulouse, France E-mail: doucet@laas.fr "S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de probl�me." (Les Shadoks) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! [not found] ` <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com> 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Jean-Etienne Doucet @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com>, e108678@pwflcom wrote: > I am wondering if Ada is unique among ANSI/ISO standardized languages > with respect to the ready availability of the standards on-line? I > don't think I've seen, for example, the ANSI-C or the C++ standard as > a freely available download Typically that won't happen, as selling the standards is about the only source of income ISO has. But often folks make draft versions of the standards available. For example, a late draft version of the C++ standard is available at http://www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/cpp/pub/wp/html/cd2/ There's also a C9X effort ( http://www.c9x.org/ ) which contains a draft version of the next C standard. But the text there implies it will not be made available after the standard is approved. Of course they are running out of time for "9X". :-) Hmm. I also find it quite intriguing that their webpage has a picture of a lemming on it. :-) I guess this is one area where the RFC process is superior to ISO. -- T.E.D. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Mark Lundquist ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > Typically that won't happen, as selling the standards is about the only > source of income ISO has. But often folks make draft versions of the > standards available. For example, a late draft version of the C++ > standard is available at > http://www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/cpp/pub/wp/html/cd2/ > Oh, I don't object to ISO trying to make a buck. Somebody has to pay the bills, right? I just think that even a relatively low price still acts as a barrier to learning and using the language. You'll have people with casual curiosity or a one-shot question who won't want to pay just for a quick peek. There are college students without much money who will be inhibited. There are corporate rules that make it difficult for me to get reimbursed for shelling out cash for a document or book I think I need - Sure, I could pay for it out of my own pocket, but that has a way of adding up to non-trivial cash after a while and why should I do that when its a benefit for the company? I'm sure you can think up even more reasons why "free" is better than "cheap". The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with teaching my in-house Ada class. Many of my students are curious enough to want to learn more on their own so I let them borrow books off of my shelf & I get them their own personalized print-out of the standard so they can refer to it while studying. The on-line hypertext version is also useful to them when they've got a quick question about some feature. > > There's also a C9X effort ( http://www.c9x.org/ ) which contains a draft > version of the next C standard. But the text there implies it will not > be made available after the standard is approved. Of course they are > running out of time for "9X". :-) > > Hmm. I also find it quite intriguing that their webpage has a picture of > a lemming on it. :-) I'm brushing up on C and learning C++ in anticipation of needing these skills as I go about looking for a new job. Its been a couple of years since I've had to do anything in C and I guess as time passes, one tends to forget about all the pain that goes with it. As I plow through the C++ book, I keep asking myself "Why would anybody do this if they weren't being forced to?" The only answer I can come up with is that there is a huge mound of available resources to go with it, so you live with screwy pointer references to everything and the null terminated strings and all the obfuscating operator symbols because this is the way you get at all the GUI builders, debuggers, databases, OS calls, etc. etc, etc. I know Ada has the ability to do most or all of what you can do with C++ in terms of interfacing to all those spiffy tools, but it still lacks a nice, full up, one-stop-shopping, kit where you get the whole ball of wax in one shot. Sure, you can pull things together from a variety of sources and get the same capabilities, but that's difficult and tends to force you to be spending time fooling with the toolset rather than moving the mission forward. And even if you had the integrated toolset, it wouldn't be doing things "The Ada Way" - you'd be writing Ada++ code. (For example: I think callbacks from a GUI are a kludge when you've got a language that will do tasking.) Granted, we've made advances, but C/C++ continue to sell IMHO more because of the infrastructure than because of technical superiority. MDC -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Mark Lundquist 1999-09-22 0:00 ` David Botton [not found] ` <37FC0C54.8F8@l5i.net> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Mark Lundquist @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > I know Ada has the ability to do most or all of what you can do with C++ in > terms of interfacing to all those spiffy tools, but it still lacks a nice, > full up, one-stop-shopping, kit where you get the whole ball of wax in one > shot. Sure, you can pull things together from a variety of sources and get > the same capabilities, but that's difficult and tends to force you to be > spending time fooling with the toolset rather than moving the mission > forward. That is absolutely right. Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Mark Lundquist @ 1999-09-22 0:00 ` David Botton 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic [not found] ` <37FC0C54.8F8@l5i.net> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 1999-09-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote in message <37E90673.697F68E1@pwfl.com>... >The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with >teaching my in-house Ada class. If it wasn't for the free standards document and GNAT, I don't know if I would have ever gotten in to Ada. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-22 0:00 ` David Botton @ 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) David Botton wrote: > Marin David Condic wrote in message <37E90673.697F68E1@pwfl.com>... > >The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with > >teaching my in-house Ada class. > > If it wasn't for the free standards document and GNAT, I don't know if I > would have ever gotten in to Ada. IMHO, This is one of the things that the Ada community has done *right* in promoting Ada. "Here's your compiler free of charge. Here's your standard document free of charge. Here's some on-line tutorials to get you started free of charge, etc. etc. etc." That makes it *very* easy for the student or curious developer to charge off and start playing games with it. I also think it helps that GNAT installs easily and reliably so that the relatively new & unsophisticated computer programmer doesn't hit snags which may discourage them. Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a CD that had GNAT on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a printed copy of the ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or "Ada95 For Smart People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the whole thing in a shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that says "All this for the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the shelf next to the Visual C++ boxes. That and maybe a few guest appearances on the computer-oriented radio chat shows and there may be a real surge in Ada usage, eh? MDC -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby 1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 1999-09-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: | Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a CD that had GNAT | on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a printed copy of the | ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or "Ada95 For Smart | People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the whole thing in a | shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that says "All this for | the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the $29.95 I'd say. -- Preben Randhol [randhol@pvv.org] [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] "If you had just boarded an airliner and discovered that your team of programmers had been responsible for the flight control software, how many of you would disembark immediately?" -- unknown ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol @ 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: > Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: > | the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the > $29.95 I'd say. Well, first you need to be a little high so you have somewhere to mark it down to in the "closeout" racks when a newer version becomes available. :-) I've purchased plenty of programming textbooks alone that cost $29.95 and up. Throwing in a compiler and some other spiffy stuff ought to bring the value up a bit. Or did you have in mind the notion of simply writing a "Learn Ada95 In 21 Days" book and including the compiler glued to the back cover and getting it some shelf space at Waldenbooks? Sounds more like a $39.95 price point. Ultimately, we need to set MR = MC and finding that price point could be complicated ;-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1999-09-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <m3905xfsbq.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>, Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org> wrote: > Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: > > | Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a CD that had GNAT > | on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a printed copy of the > | ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or "Ada95 For Smart > | People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the whole thing in a > | shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that says "All this for > | the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the > $29.95 I'd say. Is the Walnut Creek CD ROM really so very far from this goal???b Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol @ 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: P.S. Norby @ 1999-09-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > >"Ada95 For Smart > People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Oh, foo! You stole my book title. ;-) P.S.N. "Software engineers are, in many ways, similar to normal people" -- Scott Adams "No excuses. No embarrassment. No apologies... Ada -- the most trusted and powerful programming language on earth, or in space." -- S. Tucker Taft \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ \\\ ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) ( :) /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// (Speaking only for myself) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby @ 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "P.S. Norby" wrote: > Marin David Condic wrote: > > > >"Ada95 For Smart > > People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". > > Oh, foo! You stole my book title. ;-) O.K. So we just co-author it, eh? MDC -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1999-09-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <37EB8375.41BD@cacd.rockwell.com>, "P.S. Norby" <psnorby@cacd.rockwell.com> wrote: > Marin David Condic wrote: > > > >"Ada95 For Smart > > People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". If you think about it the book "C++ for Dummies" is pretty frightening. The idea that software is appropriately written by people willing to think of themselves as dummies does NOT seem a good thing :-( Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > If you think about it the book "C++ for Dummies" is pretty > frightening. The idea that software is appropriately written > by people willing to think of themselves as dummies does NOT > seem a good thing :-( > I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so pejorative as it might seem. The 'For Dummies' probably works because it makes people feel comfortable with the book, believing that it won't contain material so turgid or murky that only a rocket scientist could figure it out. I suppose that everyone has to start out learning programming somewhere, but I'd agree that it would be better if people approached it with the attitude that it is something which requires good mental capabilities and hard work. It shouldn't be viewed as something that anyone can do with a week's worth of training. MDC -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Keith Thompson @ 1999-09-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: > I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For > Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so > pejorative as it might seem. Still, I've always been tempted to go into a bookstore with a bunch of yellow on black "is" stickers. "XXX (Is) For Dummies". -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst> "Oh my gosh! You are SO ahead of your time!" -- anon. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The International standard paper on Ada !! 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson @ 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 1999-09-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes: | I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For | Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so | pejorative as it might seem. The 'For Dummies' probably works because it | makes people feel comfortable with the book, believing that it won't | contain material so turgid or murky that only a rocket scientist could | figure it out. I actually saw a book on crystallisation (it was scientific and supposedly good) called "Crystallization for beginners". I guess Crystallization for dummies would be a bad sales trick in the scientific community at least ;-) | I suppose that everyone has to start out learning programming somewhere, | but I'd agree that it would be better if people approached it with the | attitude that it is something which requires good mental capabilities | and hard work. It shouldn't be viewed as something that anyone can do | with a week's worth of training. I agree. -- Preben Randhol [randhol@pvv.org] [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] "If you had just boarded an airliner and discovered that your team of programmers had been responsible for the flight control software, how many of you would disembark immediately?" -- unknown ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
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* Re: GUI - "The Ada Way" [not found] ` <EEqM3.209$8Z6.8970@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> @ 1999-10-12 0:00 ` Vladimir Olensky 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Vladimir Olensky @ 1999-10-12 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@bix.com wrote in message ... > This is the way we went in CLAW (Class Library of > Ada for Windows). Just wondering - when there will be the next great release of CLAW with new exiting features? We have generic version of CLAW (r.1.2) and paid additionally for one year maintenance hoping to have the next release of the enhanced CLAW with bug fixes and new features before the end of the year. I hoped that we would have something additional for that additional money. Generally I have very high opinion of CLAW though I think there are areas where it could be improved. RR Software has my suggestions which I sent to Randall Brukardt at the beginning of this year. Generally they included suggestions to add more components to it including additional functionality regarding communications in addition to sockets ( including overlapped serial async communications package, mailslots, pipes, memory mapped files ) , thick ODBC bindings and may be some other things. Idea was to make it more close to Delphi in functionality and to have something more or less close to TAO regarding communications. My opinion is that CLAW could be a very good foundation for Windows Ada framework that is much more than a class library and GUI builder for just building Ada Windows GUIs. What's interesting some time ago Sun introduced new standard Java class library for doing serial communications. So this is indicator that professional serial communication package is a MUST for any serious development environment. Having TCP/IP, Serial Communications and ODBC allows quickly build any kind of proxies between equipment and (remote) control applications. In addition to that named pipes and mailslots is effective way for communications between different applications and threads that may reside on different NT machines. In this respect Java didn't went that far. It uses anonymous pipes that primary use is to provide communications between different application threads. If CLAW had all that it would be invaluable. Regards, Vladimir Olensky ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: GUI - "The Ada Way" [not found] ` <3801F338.2669D489@pwfl.com> [not found] ` <EEqM3.209$8Z6.8970@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> @ 1999-10-14 0:00 ` Vincent Marciante 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Vincent Marciante @ 1999-10-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > This would be hard to describe in detail in this forum. What I have in mind is ... > Thankyou for the description. Sincerely, Vincenat Marciante ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-10-14 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <7s5285$3f4$1@hiline.shinbiro.com> 1999-09-22 0:00 ` The International standard paper on Ada !! Wes Groleau [not found] ` <37E6B403.3AB0F09F@averstar.com> [not found] ` <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com> 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Jean-Etienne Doucet 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-22 0:00 ` Mark Lundquist 1999-09-22 0:00 ` David Botton 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Preben Randhol 1999-09-23 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1999-09-24 0:00 ` P.S. Norby 1999-09-24 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Marin David Condic 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 1999-09-27 0:00 ` Preben Randhol [not found] ` <37FC0C54.8F8@l5i.net> [not found] ` <3801F338.2669D489@pwfl.com> [not found] ` <EEqM3.209$8Z6.8970@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> 1999-10-12 0:00 ` GUI - "The Ada Way" Vladimir Olensky 1999-10-14 0:00 ` Vincent Marciante
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