From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, LOTS_OF_MONEY autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f5d71,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gidf5d71,public X-Google-Thread: 146b77,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid146b77,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public From: robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com Subject: Re: Ada vs C++ vs Java Date: 1999/01/17 Message-ID: <77t3ld$nou$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 433654339 References: <369C1F31.AE5AF7EF@concentric.net> <369DDDC3.FDE09999@sea.ericsson.se> <369e309a.32671759@news.demon.co.uk> <77ledn$eu7$1@remarQ.com> <77pnqc$cgi$1@newnews.global.net.uk> <8p64spq5lo5.fsf@Eng.Sun.COM> X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x15.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.37.79.155 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 17 16:38:06 1999 GMT Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c++,comp.vxworks,comp.lang.java X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 [en] (OS/2; I) Date: 1999-01-17T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <8p64spq5lo5.fsf@Eng.Sun.COM>, Mike Coffin wrote: > When it first appeared, Ada was the > laughingstock of programmers everywhere for its insane > complexity and C++ has managed to outdo it. In my experience, people who think Ada is an unacceptably complex language are those who simply don't know it and prefer to find a reason for rejecting a programming language without having to make the effort to learn it. Dave Parnas is an example of a well known person who has made the statement that Ada is too complex. I challenged him to a debate, and (to my surprise) he accepted! In the run up discussion to the debate, he commented that he did not want to debate technical details because he was not that familiar with the technical details of Ada, I agreed to this ground rule. Unfortunately, the debate was cancelled by Dave because of poor health, and he never rescheduled it despite my offer to reschedule at any time or place. It would have been interesting! Of course there are those for whom Ada is too complex, but then there are those for whom programming itself is far too complex, and unfortunately far too many of those kind of people are graduated with computer science degrees and working on critical software of various kinds! > Then let me use Eiffel, or ML, or Scheme, or Haskell Not out of the question, providing that you know the language well, and that it is suitable for the task. You do have to worry about non-programming language issues. For example, lack of standardization, lack of sufficient diversity of commercially supported tool sets etc. > I used them for years. I hate them. I got into this > business because I like elegance, not baling wire and > duct tape. If you really think that you cannot write elegant code in Ada, then you may have used it for years, but you never learned it. The same is true for C++. You probably just have never learned some of the really important elements of elegance such as data abstraction, and separation of specification and implementations, since they aren't in C, they are probably foreign to you. Using Ada and C++ does not necessarily cure this gap in knowledge, learning them properly does! As for the argument that any programmer can write horrible code in any language and that therefore language does not matter, this is a commonly argued point, but in fact it is a ludicrous non-sequitur. It is like saying, a bad doctor can kill patients no matter what tools they are using, therefore tools don't matter, therefore let's stop wasting money on xray machines and other expensive tools. > The programmer is now writing Java for an internet > startup and has stock options worth $3.6 million. > He has an occasional mild headache but no ulcers. To think that making money is evidence of competence or quality is particularly naive. I guess you think NT must be the best operating system in the world *simply because* Microsoft is making lots of money -- an interesting theory indeed. Actually suh internet startups are often typical of companies that indeed are operating at CMM level 1, and have internal software practices that are the envy of none. Here is an interesting test. For all people in your organization, what would happen if they suddenly changed jobs and disappeared in 3 days (happens all the time in the valley). How much critical knowledge and know-how would be lost? Robert Dewar -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own