From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,TO_NO_BRKTS_FROM_MSSP autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,8bc34e14e4555720 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-10-10 12:14:42 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newspeer.cts.com!130.94.89.10.MISMATCH!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!newsranger.com!www.newsranger.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada From: Ted Dennison References: <9pk4t7$tbm$1@trog.dera.gov.uk> <87zo762rta.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> <9pkc0r$m5j$1@trog.dera.gov.uk> <9pkddm$afh$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9pvdp5$8im$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9q1lrp$e1q$1@nh.pace.co.uk> Subject: Re: This is a simple question Message-ID: <761x7.23522$ev2.32340@www.newsranger.com> X-Abuse-Info: When contacting newsranger.com regarding abuse please X-Abuse-Info: forward the entire news article including headers or X-Abuse-Info: else we will not be able to process your request X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsranger.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:14:11 EDT Organization: http://www.newsranger.com Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:14:11 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:14199 Date: 2001-10-10T19:14:11+00:00 List-Id: In article <9q1lrp$e1q$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says... > >It seemed to come up with an Ada menu option when I figured out how to open >up an Ada file - why no pop-up window with a file selection screen? (We're >back to bitching about it not looking like a Windows app.) And here's the Ted's mantra #5: "Different" /= "Bad". Perhaps it is bad, if that's all you know how to operate and care how to learn to operate. But one can actually find the proper file to open and open it lots quicker the way Emacs does it. Hints: When prompted for a file, you can hit a few characters and then TAB, and it will try to complete the filename for you. If there are name clashes, it will fill in the common part, you can then type the next character or two and hit TAB again to get the rest. If you are confused about what the clash could be, hit TAB a second time, and it will list the possiblities. You can load a directory into a buffer ("open directory" from the menu). This then works much like your "pop up" file dialog, except that it is *way* more powerful, as all the normal editing commands work in it too. For instance, the search commands are available (quite helpful in directories with lots of files). This directory list buffer also stays available until you explicitly get rid of it, rather than going away and making you surf around for it again later. >main gripe: After pointing it at an Ada file, it quite nicely opened it up >and managed to look like Notepad or any other standard issue text editor. >Gee. That's swell. Why not just use whatever standard-issue text editor >thats already on my system? It should have added an "Ada" menu, which includes all the sorts of options you were talking about. Are you sure it isn't there? Also, most Ada users will probably want to turn on font-lock mode to get a syntax-colorized buffer. (Go under "Help->Options" and select "Global Font Lock"). There's also loads of other nifty stuff in there for even more advanced users. You can get a list of them and their current bindings (if any) by selecting "Help->Describe->Describe Buffer Modes" from the menu. I don't think any of this stuff is really out of line compared to the difficulty in figuring out how to use another full-featured development environment, like VisualStudio. >Well, my harangue against EMACS stems from earlier discussions about using >it as the basis for an IDE for Ada - making a "kit" for Ada development that >starts to look like other "kits" for other languages. My objection is not >that EMACS lacks power (I'm told by people I trust that it has lots of >power - maybe too much power.) My objection is that as it currently stands, >it doesn't pop-up as an Ada-oriented IDE with fairly obvious >buttons/menus/icons/whatever that do the things one would typically want to >do with a library full of Ada stuff and do it in an >intuitively-obvious-to-the-casual-PS-oriented-observer way. Again, I don't think "looking like everyone else" is nessecarily a valid top goal. Emacs' differences allow it to do more things. Sure, that makes it rough on beginners. If beginners need some kind of rounded-scissors IDE, those exist (even for Ada). What our point was, was that any attempt to make an environment for *serious* users should be based on Emacs. Otherwise, you will spend loads of effort duplicating (a small part of) what has been done before. Worse, when you are done, you certianly won't have *all* the power of Emacs duplicated (it probably has near a million man years invested in it), and serious users will be forced back into Emacs as they find your features lacking. In the end, all your effort will be wasted, as folks will just find ways to end-run your tools so they can use Emacs. This isn't just theory, I've seen it happen on multiple projects. Its frustrating to see good vendor tools (and all the time they spent working on them) go to waste because they didn't bother to build around Emacs. But it might indeed be a good idea to make some kind of Ada-specific bundle that includes Emacs, the latest&greatest Ada mode, certian useful options changed from their defaults (eg: colorizing), and a "getting started with Ada" buffer that loads the first time Emacs is started. That would help out serious users who aren't afraid to learn, but don't know where to start. I really don't think it would take much more than that. I suppose if you really wanted to get fancy, you could replace all the standard menus with ones of your own devising. You could also rework Ada mode a bit to make it work more like what you are used to. All the tools are there, you are just quibbling over their default presentation. >don't begrudge EMACS fans their editor of choice - more power to them. I >just wouldn't try to use it as the basis for an Ada IDE if I was building >one from bottom-dead-center with the goal of making a commercially viable >development kit. I'd want something that looked more like what PC developers >are used to seeing. I don't see EMACS fitting that description. Just my Again, that might sell copies to managers and beginners, but it would go unused in the places I've worked, if it isn't integrated with Emacs. If some company wants to try it, more power to them. But as a volunteer effort, we only have so many voluteer hours available in this community. It'd be criminal to squander them on reinventing wheels. --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.