From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 111d6b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid111d6b,public X-Google-Thread: 10d15b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid10d15b,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,8775b19e3c68a5dc X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1094ba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1094ba,public From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Subject: Re: Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Date: 1997/12/19 Message-ID: <67enk6$skq$11@darla.visi.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 308671301 References: <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com> <67comb$94o@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3498B5A6.C404C703@seasoned-software.com> <67dc5k$o02@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Organization: Plethora Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 1997 15:06:14 CST Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.cobol,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.ada Date: 1997-12-19T15:06:14-06:00 List-Id: In article <67dc5k$o02@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>, James Giles wrote: >An interesting attitude. The system is the one component of >the programming environment that everyone *must* use every >time they use the computer. It *should* be the most robust, >efiicient, and secure piece of code on the machine. Indeed! >The attitude that it needn't be seems to be a UNIXism. What the hell are you talking about? Unix is the most reliable and stable thing you can get these days. The competition is what, NT? MacOS? '95? >There's no excuse for this attitude >today - except that the vendors of systems have noticed that >UNIX never failed in popularity because of these weaknesses. Uhm. I work in support, and we get angry calls if the system crashes. Ever. We don't get compliments on reliability until over a year of uptime on a small machine with thousands of users and a few hundred active web pages. (BSDI 1.1, no less, which is a pretty old system by now.) I don't know what you think you're talking about; I have used crash-prone systems running pre-release alpha versions of Unix, or using unsupported kernel hacks, but I've never had any trouble with a real release. >Well, you're welcome to your perceptions. I'd guess that >only about 1 in 10 C (C++, maybe Java, etc...) programmers >I've ever met had any real substantial experience with any >language outside that group. You must have met a very specialized, stupid, group of C programmers. >Unless you count AWK or SED >as real languages! Awk is certainly a real language. Sed probably is - I've seen a cellular automaton in sed. You give it one line of input, and it runs forever. (For instance, if you gave it aaabbbabab it would say [-][-]---- ------[--] [----]---- -[--]-[--] ---------- [--------] -[------]- ... or something similar.) >Yet those with the least knowlwdge of other >languages are always the quickest to dismiss languages >with pat excuses ("Ada is too big", well it's smaller than C++ >and more cleanly designed - "Fortran makes you use GOTOs >all the time", well it has all the "structured" flow control of any >other language and actually restricts the use of GOTO more >than C does - etc...). Yes, indeed. Perhaps you have less knowledge of other languages than some of the folks here who use C and five other languages? >I'll say one thing, C programmers >are extremely loyal: they always accept the blame for their bugs. >Even when it's a kind of bug I see often in C programs and almost >never in any other language, they don't blame the language. Well, of *course*. You can't be a good programmer in any language if you won't accept responsibility for writing code correctly. However, I will point out that bad programmers in every language are very quick to blame the compiler. -s -- seebs@plethora.net -- I am not speaking for my employer. Copyright '97 All rights reserved. This was not sent by my cat. C and Unix wizard - send mail for help, or send money for a consultation. Visit my new ISP --- More Net, Less Spam! Plethora . Net