From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: clines@delete_this.airmail.net (Kevin Cline) Subject: Re: Any research putting c above ada? Date: 1997/05/09 Message-ID: <62DB59B5AA91FA40.7168CB7A3BBB5EC5.2D38459472B3422B@library-proxy.airnews.net>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 240380807 References: <3370B657.41C6@cca.rockwell.com> <48F4E31EB483FF64.2D875D4B19B8D13D.B14A888E6AC55544@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3371EDD8.167E@cca.rockwell.com> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3372a749.409520@news.airmail.net> Organization: INTERNET AMERICA NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.ada Date: 1997-05-09T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Roy Grimm wrote: >Kevin Cline wrote: >> >> Roy Grimm wrote: >> >Fair enough. I'd agree in principle with what you are getting at in >> >reference to "grade-grubbers". There are slackers out there just >> >interested in doing enough to get by. However, too many people >> >automatically associate that attitude with bad grades. >> >> Let me make myself perfectly clear. I believe there is little correlation >> between GPA and the ability to do software development. However, even the >> most open-minded organization is going to deselect candidates with GPA's >> below some minimum standard. > >I would agree 100% with that. My resume was summarily rejected at >several companies because of an arbitrary GPA minimum that I didn't >meet. > >> > I've never >> >gotten really good grades in any of the classwork I've done and yet I've >> >probably gotten more out of the classes than the average person. >> >> That's exactly what I meant to say. I don't want to hire people whose sole >> goal in attending is to get an A on their transcript. > >I know far too many people like that. I wouldn't want to work with >them. > >> >Fortunately, I've been in the business long enough to prove I'm no >> >slacker. >> >> It's definitely easier to judge those with professional experience. > >So how do students prove they have real technical ability? Probably the >way I did. Get a job in the college computer center and do well in ACM >programming contests. Having those two things on my resume opened quite >a few doors. There is no doubt that a graduating student with successful work experience in the field is much more attractive. >> I agree completely. That is why I make all candidates actually write code at >> a whiteboard. > >I'd love to see how some of the candidates crack under that kind of >pressure. "You mean I actually have to write real code?!?" I ask them to code a 15-line function that requires two nested loops. Most people claim to know C, but almost any language is acceptable. If they can come reasonably close to a solution, I ask them to tell me the run-time complexity of their function. Once, a few years ago, the candidate reported to his head-hunter that I was unfairly trying to get him to do free work during the interview! > >> I'm sorry. You were poorly instructed. I was fortunate enough to attend a >> private university, and the pace was quite challenging. > >I went to a private college where the pace was barely noticable... As a >result, I took advantage of the free time to teach myself most of what I >know. > >> >How have they lasted in their positions to get any experience if they >> >don't know fundamental data structures? And did you at least try to >> >teach them what they needed to know? >> >> It's hard to instruct those more senior and more highly paid. It's was much >> more rewarding to move to an organization with higher standards. > >Personally, I would have loved the challenge. Teaching people without >them realizing it is not easy, but it can be done. Yes, but in the meantime, I get tired of cleaning up after them. >I'm not talking about throwing together a few components to make a >trivial system, I'm talking about the judgement it takes to design >complex systems and understand when you've gotten it right. We're disagreeing on terms. To me, designing complex systems that work requires a combination of creativity, technique, and judgment. Problem solving skills are a combination of creativity and technique. Judgment basically comes into play when selecting alternative solutions to the same problem.