From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.224.37.3 with SMTP id v3mr35154589qad.2.1373561935740; Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.97.7 with SMTP id dw7mr1148150qeb.16.1373561935725; Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feeder02.blueworldhosting.com!news.glorb.com!t19no1209539qam.0!news-out.google.com!f7ni2066qai.0!nntp.google.com!t19no1209535qam.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=129.59.203.98; posting-account=7Oy7OQoAAABhVYFOo553Cn1-AaU-bSfl NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.59.203.98 References: <8a3093bb-90b3-4081-9b0b-dfde5aa6b851@googlegroups.com> <993despcuk1d.1ifczvyo501px.dlg@40tude.net> <51da9a80$0$6561$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net> <1lfymwgas7bnf$.kh3wyk2tncb0.dlg@40tude.net> <1bj6kquk0z8ak$.oyr1yls3ny3e.dlg@40tude.net> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <602e6609-b42d-4c92-a105-e6d899771154@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Point a beginner in the right direction? Cheap bare-board to run with a RTOS for running ADA From: Eryndlia Mavourneen Injection-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:58:55 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: news.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:16296 Date: 2013-07-11T09:58:55-07:00 List-Id: On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 5:17:08 PM UTC-5, Randy Brukardt wrote >=20 > Ada never will be accepted by the majority, for the very simple reason th= at=20 > the "majority" are programming in Javascript and PHP, maybe Ruby or Pytho= n=20 > for big projects. Moreover, the "majority" doesn't give a damn about gett= ing=20 > anything right, they'll just use rapid updates to change it until it sort= -of=20 > works. None of which could reasonably be replaced by Ada. >=20 > > The way to get people interested in Ada is to expose them to Ada _befor= e_ > > they have made a large investment in other languages and have learned t= o > > work around the issues associated with those other languages. >=20 > But that's never been true historically, and it's even less true today. B= ack=20 > in the 70s and 80s, people started with Basic of one sort or another. A f= ew=20 > lucky ones started with Turbo Pascal. Hardly anyone started with Ada (or= =20 > even Java). >=20 > Now, people are going to start with Javascript or PHP, because what they'= re=20 > going to want to do is going to be associated with the web. >=20 > > You are still going to get people like myself interested (people who kn= ow > > those more mainstream languages, but also actively look for other safer > > languages), but the result of your worldview is that by the time many > > people are working on projects which you think are large enough to be > > considered for Ada use, then those people are just going to use the > > languages they are familiar with because they understand those language= s > > and their issues even though Ada may indeed be a better fit. > > > > There's a hell of a lot of good stuff in Ada which deserves to be more > > widely used, but a number of people here don't seem to understand that > > their ossified attitudes turn away potential newcomers while those same > > same people are moaning about the lack of new people interested in Ada. > > > > I'm frustrated because I see places it would be _very_ nice to use Ada, > > but also see that some existing attitudes within the established Ada > > community are a major blocker stopping people trying Ada. > > > > The people who you might interest in Ada today have a very different > > experience in terms of hardware platforms and projects than what you > > seem to be used to. If you want those people to start becoming interest= ed > > in Ada, you need to make Ada relevant to the way they work and their > > interests. >=20 > I spent 25 years of my life trying to get Ada more widely used by the=20 > masses. And lots of others at places like Aonix did the same. We have alm= ost=20 > nothing to show for those efforts. Indeed, we seem to have more interest = now=20 > rather than in the past now that everyone has given up those efforts. Whi= ch=20 > suggests to me, at least, that those efforts were counterproductive. Wher= e=20 > AdaCore seems to have been more successful is in giving away free stuff a= s a=20 > side-effect of their paying work. But that of course presumes that there = is=20 > paying work... >=20 > I could see a lot of value to an Ada-like language for smaller machines.= =20 > Just don't call it Ada, and you'll probably have a winner. (So many peopl= e=20 > have a knee-jerk hate of Ada, even though they've never used it, it's bet= s=20 > to distance one from the name.) That's not going to do anything for Ada= =20 > proper. >=20 > You don't like the view that I get from my 33 years of Ada experience, an= d=20 > that's fine. Feel free to prove me wrong, but if you fail, remember that = I=20 > told you that you would fail. And don't expect me to encourage anyone els= e=20 > to waste their time on what I view as a losing endevour. >=20 > Randy. In my experience (over 40+ years), people gravitate to a language b/c 1) They can afford it. This usually means free. 2) It is easy to learn and use. A well-defined "official" subset to get them "hooked" wouldn't hurt. This may exist now. I don't know. 3) Way cool tools and APIs (Android?) for doing way cool things. 4) Buy-in by major vendors; however, I do not see this as happening until (= 2) and (3) garner enough interest from the developers who are employed by t= hese major vendors. Number (3) -- the built-in tools (annexes, attributes, etc.) -- caught my a= ttention first, and then I found out that the language was going to be supp= orted by the major vendors of the time -- IBM and DEC in particular. It certainly wouldn't hurt for a MicroSoft or a Google or a Yahoo to decide= to use it internally; there certainly are many reasons to begin doing so: = The bug repair list seems to get larger rather than smaller. Perhaps one = of these giants could be persuaded to "try it out" on a small but important= project. The positive results and personnel could then be used for anothe= r project, then another, .... Btw, I started with FORTRAN and IBM 360 Assembly Language. I also have use= d C extensively but also C++, COBOL, PL/I, RPG, Delphi (Object Pascal), SNO= BOL4 (and the SPITBOL compiler for SNOBOL4), Icon, a few other assembly lan= guages, etc. None of these stopped me from immediately recognizing the bea= uty and practicality of Ada, even before there were compilers available. A= nd this was just from thumbing through the LRM in the bookstore! I really don't believe that an existing, ensconced language is going to kee= p people from switching, if they see the utility in doing so, and it is pos= sible to get a job using the "new" language. I believe the coolness factor= of great tools for specific jobs (like web page creation) can overcome man= y negative perceptions. Don't forget the countless number of independent w= eb developers who *will* use the next great tool, if it does (or has a libr= ary to do) what they need and want. We see this all the time. -- Eryndlia