From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-09 15:56:11 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!easynews!hermes2.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> From: thornley@visi.com (David Thornley) Message-ID: <5WjK6.72$Dd5.32782@ruti.visi.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 22:56:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.98.98.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 989448961 209.98.98.8 (Wed, 09 May 2001 17:56:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:56:01 CDT Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7414 comp.lang.lisp:9889 comp.lang.smalltalk:9644 comp.lang.functional:5598 comp.lang.scheme:3747 comp.lang.perl:2743 Date: 2001-05-09T22:56:01+00:00 List-Id: In article <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic wrote: >First, let me point out that I have no objection to teaching anyone Lisp at >some later point in their CS education. I have nothing against Lisp, in this >sense. The reason I wouldn't teach it as a FIRST programming language should >be fairly obvious. It is complex and unlike the bulk of other programming >languages. Whatever one decides to teach as a FIRST language ought to be >simple, easily understood, easy to work with, representative of most >commonly used languages and reflective of well understood, sound programming >practices. Lisp tends to not fit this description well at all. > C++, properly taught, does. I don't know if it's properly taught anywhere. I've taught C as a first language successfully, and the areas that gave the most trouble are the areas that I could avoid using C++. No more pointers, C-style arrays, C-style string handling, or printf/scanf. Now, if you try to learn C++ really well, you'll run into the wolves that lurk in the corners, but that's not where you'd be teaching a beginner. Common Lisp, if taught properly, is also very good. What you may be losing by using a language that looks different you make up for by omitting so much of the felderkarb that other languages have. In CL, if you need a number, you don't have to decide exactly what sort of number it is to be before the program works. More of a CL program is an attack on the problem than in most languages. -- David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask. david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee. http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-