From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a6b:4402:: with SMTP id r2mr11317106ioa.30.1552475293342; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 04:08:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:134b:: with SMTP id r11mr17046211otq.213.1552475293028; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 04:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.uzoreto.com!news.muarf.org!nntpfeed.proxad.net!feeder1-1.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.166.216.MISMATCH!82no90751itk.0!news-out.google.com!y88ni103ita.0!nntp.google.com!u72no69575ita.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 04:08:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=70.109.61.2; posting-account=QF6XPQoAAABce2NyPxxDAaKdAkN6RgAf NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.109.61.2 References: User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <56e6bb4c-fb8a-4ff9-8497-64d8fd5d033b@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Intervention needed? From: Jere Injection-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:08:13 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:55859 Date: 2019-03-13T04:08:12-07:00 List-Id: On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 5:10:31 AM UTC-4, Maciej Sobczak wrote: > OK, playing the devils's advocate again. > > > As far as I can see, Rust's only innovation is safer pointers, > > Which is, arguably, the innovation many people have been waiting for. > > > but it still has > > a bad design that requires the use of pointers. > > Why it is bad? > Before, the criticism of pointers was based on the fact that pointers are dangerous. So, Ada is better, because it avoids these dangers. > Now we have guys with *safe* pointers and what? They are bad, because they use pointers? And pointers are bad, because they are dange... wait, something's went wrong. The harder sell of Jeff's argument is the same issue we constantly have heated discussions about in comp.lang.ada: proper terminology. Rust technically does have pointers, but they are not what Jeff is talking about. He's talking about references, which, technically, not really pointers (they don't dangle, can't be freed, cannot be shared, and aren't required to be implemented via pointers under the hood...though they probably are). Trying to use a pointer in Rust will net you a compiler error out of the box. Rust's whole mission is to discourage the use of pointers. > And, surprise, nobody cares. Because now their pointers are safe. > > > Other than that, Rust seems to be a typical C-family language with all the > > dangers that implies. > > What dangers? Like for example pointers? Oh, wait... > > And you still wonder why you are not convincing and cannot attract newcomers to the language. > I just think in discussions like this, especially when they cross over into other communities, shouldn't devolve into "you're wrong!", which can easily happen since many of us get pretty passionate about Ada. Ada is the better language overall, but if we go in too strongly and can't even use the terminology that Rust uses properly, then our arguments will just be ignored and Ada doesn't get the advocacy it deserves. We just end up looking like zealots who cannot even research what we are talking about. Note, that I am not saying this has happened yet, but based on how the discussion is going in this email chain, if it were to spill over into the Rust thread, I would be concerned that it would happen. I apologize if this sounds accusatory. I didn't intend it, but not sure how to write this out without it sounding that way. That said, I think it would be bad for the Ada community to not appreciate some of the good things that Rust does better than Ada. They aren't many and certainly aren't enough for me to think it is a better language, but to blindly ignore them is a long term mistake for the community as a whole as it only hurts Ada. I think there is a lot to be gained if both the Rust community and Ada community collaborated instead of competed, for both languages.