From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.107.30.16 with SMTP id e16mr3074360ioe.22.1519969150070; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:39:10 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.157.4.22 with SMTP id 22mr206272otc.2.1519969149939; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:39:09 -0800 (PST) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.linkpendium.com!news.linkpendium.com!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!e10no154680itf.0!news-out.google.com!a2ni410ite.0!nntp.google.com!e10no154679itf.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 21:39:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=87.116.179.50; posting-account=z-xFXQkAAABpEOAnT3LViyFXc8dmoW_p NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.116.179.50 References: <5a8e17dc-1d52-4393-be58-8881e741c3a4@googlegroups.com> <1190543753.541369961.154390.laguest-archeia.com@nntp.aioe.org> <6700ecea-cdfe-4c73-88ec-d98bafd9151b@googlegroups.com> <1288175616.541375784.664064.laguest-archeia.com@nntp.aioe.org> <2babf92b-161e-4e59-9877-6de5466a6683@googlegroups.com> <95718cf6-c89c-4fb9-bd6a-5abb1146124e@googlegroups.com> <11be6e36-7041-4346-859e-876f0a19ee6b@googlegroups.com> <5b6d496b-a375-41c7-bac6-01a1b20c3137@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <51138c94-1a82-43d4-9533-c952ee856fa1@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Embeddinator-4000 begetting an Ada-cross-platform future? From: Bojan Bozovic Injection-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 05:39:10 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:50783 Date: 2018-03-01T21:39:09-08:00 List-Id: On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 12:09:00 AM UTC+1, Randy Brukardt wrote: > "Dan'l Miller" wrote in message=20 > news:e067f080-1eb6-4c23-82cf-408cac90a813@googlegroups.com... > >Shark8 wrote: > >> Turbo Pascal proved that a company could thrive by targeting=20 > >> small-businesses > >> and hobbyists with relatively cheap compilers. >=20 > >Well, yes, but back in 1983 the bar was set very low though. Philipe=20 > >Kahn's > > TurboPascal only needed to be better than Microsoft's BASICA or > > GWBASIC .interpreters. (and better than Waterloo BASIC .interpreters. > > largely only on fellow-Canadian Commodore) and better than UCSD > > p-System Pascal's p-code .virtual machine.. >=20 > That's not quite true, there were quite a few other options back then,=20 > including the $30 JRT Pascal and a variety of Ada subset compilers=20 > (including relatively inexpensive versions of Janus/Ada). Janus/Ada surel= y=20 > was a compiler-to-machine-code then (it always was, the interpreted versi= on=20 > never left the lab). >=20 > What TurboPascal did better than anyone else is play the marketing game w= ith=20 > a product that was "good enough". JRT for instance was well marketed but = was=20 > rather limited. We (RRS =3D Janus/Ada) didn't do a very good job of the= =20 > marketing game, and even if we had, I have to wonder if the product reall= y=20 > was "good enough" (the cheap product probably wasn't, and the expensive o= ne=20 > was too expensive -- we eventually got that right, but I think that was= =20 > after the advent of TurboPascal). >=20 > In any case, the situation today is wildly different. As Dan'l said, many= of=20 > the users bought Turbo Pascal because it was "good enough" and cheap. But= =20 > today, one can get various compilers that are "good enough" and *free*.= =20 > There is no real market for a $99 compiler today because someone can get= =20 > something just as good for free -- why spend the money? (And the support = for=20 > a $99 compiler necessarily has to be limited, meaning that it can't be mu= ch=20 > better than what you can get with a newsgroup like this one.) >=20 > The existence of GNAT effectively put RR Software out of business; a larg= e=20 > part of our revenue came from being the lowest-cost Ada option, but of=20 > course one cannot compete with free. And we never had enough high-end=20 > business to survive on that alone. (That probably happened in part by try= ing=20 > to be the lowest-cost option, which caused reputational issues.) >=20 > I doubt that anyone could recapture the environment of the 1980s for any= =20 > programming language -- a free option would appear way too quickly to pay= =20 > back your investment. >=20 > Randy. Now my $0.02. The problem in Ada compilers and support for specific platfor= m is Ada related problem, as C/C++ have many compilers available (MS, Intel= , GCC, Clang/LLVM/XCode). Its simply due to bad reputation Ada got from the= start, mostly from those with zilch experience with Ada, and this misinfor= mation you all know well, dating from eighties. Thus I suppose its much eas= ier to find qualified C/C++ programmer for a project, than Ada one, too, an= d you can't blame businesses from "going with the flow", they have to. AdaC= ore markets only to embedded and safety critical applications in automation= , industry, transportation etc. That means little for ordinary applications= where cost and time to market are more relevant, and even there Ada would = do well, but it doesn't matter we know, it matters someone in charge of big= business knows! On the other end there are Ada enthusiasts, and now I see = someone would develop for Android and iOS with Ada, but is that enough to m= ake new product for the market, be it FOSS or commercial one? For example, = in my country no university offers Ada as part of CS curriculum. Much more = needs to be done beyond what AdaCore and other embedded compiler developers= do in terms of advocacy, so that more people use it and its more present i= n universities.