From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.43.153.208 with SMTP id lb16mr13330070icc.12.1414683523775; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.88.70 with SMTP id s64mr16650qgd.32.1414683523745; Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.glorb.com!r10no1842979igi.0!news-out.google.com!u5ni17qab.1!nntp.google.com!u7no1214265qaz.1!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=80.254.158.52; posting-account=bMuEOQoAAACUUr_ghL3RBIi5neBZ5w_S NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.254.158.52 References: <220f97ab-9aa2-4961-b140-2b271c3ab99a@googlegroups.com> <99759c3f-a35f-4745-a8fd-2fb6ab6fb1aa@googlegroups.com> <48dc1630-8e7d-4e29-8bdd-53d74932d9d0@googlegroups.com> <88a7f98c-55c2-4b5f-8a9d-c8b7512781c8@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <50cacb19-5d0b-4dbe-b91b-0b3b462913d6@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: F-22 ADA Programming From: Maciej Sobczak Injection-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:38:43 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: news.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:22922 Date: 2014-10-30T08:38:43-07:00 List-Id: > Surely if the language is chosen by management, they share in the respons= ibility > for its effect. A developer who agrees to work on the project using the p= oor > language has made a decision to do so, and is clearly responsible for tha= t decision. Sorry, I got lost in this. I mean - in the taking responsibility part. Does it mean that if we choose Ada and then shit happens, are we cleared fr= om responsibility, because the choice was good? The difference between Ada and C++ is not that in Ada there will be no bugs= and in C++ there will be only bugs. At best, the language choice will have= some influence on the probability and economy of failure. So, let's say (j= ust for the sake of discussion, with no regard to how ridiculous it got alr= eady) that with C++ the probability of project failure is 30% and with Ada = the probability of project failure is 20%. I don't care if these numbers re= flect reality. a) And I choose C++. And then shit happens. Am I responsible? To what exten= t? b) And I choose Ada. And then shit happens. Am I responsible? To what exten= t? Are you ready to throw some numbers or can we agree that the discussion wen= t out of control and the whole responsibility argument is just nonsense? On the other hand, I can imagine a world where programmers are covered by c= ivil responsibility insurance (just like in many other industries) and insu= rance companies will offer insurance discounts to better programmers (just = as they do to people with good car driving history or with no smoking habit= s, etc.). And then, it will be in the interest of programmers to stick to t= echnologies that allow them pay less for insurance (ultimately, programmers= that stick to good technologies will be also cheaper to hire, as their ins= urance will be levied on employers anyway). So, when the manager says "this project will be written in C++", the progra= mmer will answer "this will cost me/you more in insurance, better switch to= Ada" and then the manager will go back to his Excel to rethink his choices= . Insurance companies would then make sure that primes are periodically rev= iewed and reflect the actual industry failure rates, which will allow good = technologies to bubble up and shitware sink down. Would that work? I was elaborating on this idea several times and it makes = sense to me, as it puts money into the equation just as it already does in = many other parts of our life. If my insurance company cares about me doing = proper technical service of my car, it might as well guide me in the choice= of my programming language, there is really little difference here. But until this (or something equivalent) happens, please don't argue that t= he programmer is responsible for his language choices, as such argument has= no tangible (and countable) foundations. It's just hand-waving. --=20 Maciej Sobczak * http://www.inspirel.com