From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,baaf5f793d03d420 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: fc89c,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gidfc89c,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,6154de2e240de72a X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public From: Craig Franck Subject: Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Date: 1996/08/29 Message-ID: <504hv6$s21@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Deja-AN: 177176774 references: <31FBC584.4188@ivic.qc.ca> <01bb83f5$923391e0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> <4uah1k$b2o@solutions.solon.com> <01bb853b$ca4c8e00$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> <4udb2o$7io@solutions.solon.com> <01bb8569$9910dca0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> <4urqam$r9u@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> <01bb8b84$200baa80$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> <4vbbf6$g0a@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> <01bb8f18$713e0e60$32ee6fce@timhome2> <4vroh3$17f@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> <01bb9360$21d0dbe0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> <503bq0$js@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii organization: AT&T WorldNet Services mime-version: 1.0 newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.unix.programmer,comp.lang.ada x-mailer: Mozilla 1.22ATT (Windows; U; 16bit) Date: 1996-08-29T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: ok@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) wrote: >"Tim Behrendsen" writes: > >>Uh, the people who coded in assembly -- AND CHECKED THE COMPILER >>OUTPUT -- produced programs that were bigger and slower? > >Yes, the report says that the people who were thinking in assembly >terms (but writing IMP) and checked the compiler output DID produce >bigger slower programs than the people who were thinking in high >level (well, PL/I-ish) terms. > >>I think that there were other factors involved other than just >>"assembly vs HLL" style learning. > >This was a project at one of the top computer departments in one of the >top Universities in Britain, and they were desperately keen to get >working software. In fact, when UNIX V7 first started to become popular, >IMP had been ported to more machines than C (including 16bit, 32-bit, >36-bit, and 48-bit ones) and EMAS had been ported to more machines than >UNIX. When the University of Kent ditched ICL's operating system for >the ICL 2900 and adopted EMAS, they wanted and got an *increase* in >performance and reliability. > >When I met EMAS, in 1980, it was running on ICL 2900s and serving a >large undergraduate population. At the time I sneered at it because >it wasn't UNIX, but dynamic loading, memory mapped files, archiving, >and a bunch of other things were there and darned solid. > >In short, I think you will find that the people the report was talking >about were good experienced 70s-style programmers. > >>Again, I have to go back to the fact that *we have the world >>that you want*. And it doesn't work. > >You don't even BEGIN to know what world I want. >I can tell you for certain sure that we don't even begin to approach >hailing distance of the shadow of the world I want. >To start with, I would like students at entry > > - to have a really thorough grasp of their native language > (I could count the number of 1st year students here who can tell me > the difference between a count noun and a mass noun on the fingers > of one ear) > > - to have an adequate grasp of English if that is not their native language > > - to take *pleasure* in reading > > - to be able to use the index in a book > > - to be able to write a short essay on a topic that interests them > > - to have a reasonable grasp of the elements of algebra and calculus > (I learned calculus from "Teach Yourself Calculus"; a *great* little book) > [I *know* what the high-school curriculum has in this state; I'd take > that and say thank you but that the students don't actually -know- it] > > - to have a reasonable grasp of the really elementary points about statistics; > I don't care if they know what a standard deviation is, but I _do_ wish > they understood that in the presence of variation one measurement tells > you very little > [again, the Victorian high school currculum has everything I want and > more; it is or was a good curriculum] > > - to have some grasp of reasoning; ideally the notion of formal proof, > but at the very least the idea that a plausible argument might be wrong > [there is some very good material produced for schools these days.] > > - to be able to play at least one musical instrument (including the human > voice and drums as musical instruments) or knit or crochet or weave; > what I have in mind here is enjoyable "humane" or "arts" activities > that concern quasi-periodic patterns with a notation that you learn > to read, so that you learn to take pleasure in reading things that > are not text, but are still in some sense "stories". > >I'm sorry, but it is FARCICAL to argue about whether students should learn >assembly code early on or not when I get students who cannot divide >1000 by 10 without a calculator (this really happened) and cannot spell >their own name (this happened too). And we don't get the worst university >entrants here either, far from it. > >In the world I want, it would be impossible to stop students learning >about assembly code anyway; they would be willing and able to pick it >up from a book. In the world I want, it would not be dangerous to >teach students about assembly early on, because they would have already >caught the ideas of patterns and transformations and reasoning. I wrote >my first (IBM/360) assembly code program while still at high school; but >I had learned matrix algebra before that, so it did me no harm. > >Prioritising the thousand things we need to teach, to students > - who find reading and writing English difficult and unpleasant > - who loathe and dread mathematics and anything that looks like it > - who are much more interested in producing flashy GUIs than in having > a working algorithm for the U to I with > - who cannot listen and take notes at the same time (preprinted lecture > notes are now being demanded as a right) > - ah, you get the idea >is not easy. > >Tim Behrendsen, if you think assembler is more urgent than remedial >English and elementary mathematics, we shall just have to disagree. > Well, Tim will have to answer that last question, but I will say that being a well educated, moral, civic minded person is far more important than having a good grasp of any programming language. It is just that a discusion of assembler VS. HLL is far more topical for a comp. group, all other concerns not withstanding. :-) -- Craig clfranck@worldnet.att.net Manchester, NH "You see all around you people engaged in making others live lives which are not their own, while they themselves care nothing for their own real lives -- men who hate life though they fear death". -- William Morris, "News from Nowhere" (1891)