From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 1696ae,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid1696ae,public X-Google-Thread: fc89c,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gidfc89c,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,baaf5f793d03d420 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,6154de2e240de72a X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: jah@cais.cais.com (John A Hughes) Subject: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal? Date: 1996/07/24 Message-ID: <4t5r14$q74@news2.cais.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 170772642 references: <4t49om$ebi@epx.cis.umn.edu> organization: Sent via CAIS Internet newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.unix.programmer,comp.dos.programmer,comp.lang.ada Date: 1996-07-24T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <4t49om$ebi@epx.cis.umn.edu>, Andrew J Steinbach wrote: >Darin Johnson (djohnson@tartarus.ucsd.edu) wrote: >: Of course, IMHO, I think the solution would be to take the military >: route. Don't reason with the students, make them do laps or pushups >: instead. Call them names and insult their mothers when they claim to >: be smarter than you. Get rid of all their preconceived notions in >: boot camp so they can actually learn something later on. (what, do >: students actually say "only wussies use Pascal in the real world" at >: West Point?). > > Absolutely. "We know what's good for you. Your ideas are >invalid and stupid. Now swallow everything we feed you, because it is >the WORD." Free thought, opinions, what a concept. Ugh. Have you >considered that these people may actually have *valid* complaints with >Scheme? I have yet to encounter anything in my life that someone could not have valid complaints about. One can argue which style of teaching and which tools are the best for that style, and I would find that a pretty interesting argument, but I do believe the classes I was TAing were tailored towards a certain set of goals and that the choice of Scheme was not unreasonable for those goals. The most troubling thing is that people feel there are expendable concepts that you can ignore if you use the right language, that all this discussion about correct programming, giving an eye to maintainability and extensibility, and using the features of various languages properly is all airy-fairy and gets in the way of doing "real work". There are brilliant people who can do anything with any tool and any methodology, but normal people need to be taught specific methodologies with specific tools. And as far as I can tell there was nothing we taught in our class that was not worth learning, and the people who complained about the language are morons who I hope no one ever hires, especially not in any company where I might have to deal with them and their code. > This is true, but the choice of language does make a difference in >the final result, too. I do have a problem with using Scheme as a >learning tool in intro courses. Why is it wrong to teach students basic >algorithms and data structures using a language which they probably >already know? Most intro CSci students aren't programming virgins (well, >at least the ones I know). I think you have to pick a language for intro classes. And I don't think picking one they're already familiar with, and presumably already have bad habits in, is a priori any better than choosing one they've never seen before intending them to actually pay attention to someone else's experience in that language and in programming in general. I'll say it again; if you think a particular language only teaches you things not worth learning, you have a pretty impoverished idea of what useful knowledge is. jah