From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, REPLYTO_WITHOUT_TO_CC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 1696ae,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid1696ae,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: fc89c,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gidfc89c,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,baaf5f793d03d420 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,6154de2e240de72a X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu Subject: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal? Date: 1996/07/24 Message-ID: <4t5nc7$ok3@corn.cso.niu.edu>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 170470628 references: ,<4t49om$ebi@epx.cis.umn.edu> organization: NIU Physics Dept. reply-to: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.unix.programmer,comp.dos.programmer,comp.lang.ada Date: 1996-07-24T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: stei0113@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Andrew J Steinbach) writes: >Darin Johnson (djohnson@tartarus.ucsd.edu) wrote: >: > A sizeable portion of the class, >: > however, whined because they talked to "big, smart people in the real >: > world" who told them they were wasting their time, no one uses Scheme, >: > it's a stupid language, you can't do XYZ like you can in C or >: > whatever, man, universities are stupid, this country is fucked up >: > blablabla. > >: Unfortunately, this group exists regardless of what you teach or how. >: I've TA'd and proctored a variety of classes (programming and >: architecture), and you don't get away from them. And it's not just [clip] >: Of course, IMHO, I think the solution would be to take the military >: route. Don't reason with the students, make them do laps or pushups >: instead. Call them names and insult their mothers when they claim to >: be smarter than you. Get rid of all their preconceived notions in >: boot camp so they can actually learn something later on. (what, do >: students actually say "only wussies use Pascal in the real world" at >: West Point?). I personally assumed that this was at least partly tongue-in-cheek. I have been a T.A. as well (for physics) and fully sympathize with the above posters' feelings about the whiners. Most who have valid complaints (e.g. "The only reason I am being forced to take physics is to weed out students applying for my program") Don't whine about it, they state it and go to work. > Absolutely. "We know what's good for you. Your ideas are >invalid and stupid. Now swallow everything we feed you, because it is >the WORD." Free thought, opinions, what a concept. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, the teachers know something the students don't? That the students should work on learning what is being taught? The students expressed their feelings and the Profs and TAs argued (ARGUED not DECLARED) that the coursework was valid and usefull. >Ugh. Have you >considered that these people may actually have *valid* complaints with >Scheme? After reading the original post? no. >: The old saying goes, "he can write Fortran in any language". Which is >: just a way of saying that you can present a programmer with any >: language you want, but if they can't program well you won't get a good >: program at the end. > > This is true, but the choice of language does make a difference in >the final result, too. I do have a problem with using Scheme as a >learning tool in intro courses. Why is it wrong to teach students basic >algorithms and data structures using a language which they probably >already know? like Basic? More to the point, it is wrong because with a new language it is easier to break their bad habits. Once they learn the new habits taught by the class they can (in the long run) compare and decide which is better. >Most intro CSci students aren't programming virgins (well, >at least the ones I know). I took assembler here at NIU, many of the students in the class had had one prior programming course, COBOL. Blech, the prof and T.A.s had to teach them programming as well as assembler. Robert Morphis >Andy Steinbach >stei0113@maroon.tc.umn.edu