From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,60e2922351e0e780 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-12-01 05:02:54 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: dmytrylavrov@fsmail.net (Dmytry Lavrov) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: OT: Relativity ,super-luminal communications and time travel (Was OT: Nuclear Waste (Was Re-Marketing Ada)) Date: 1 Dec 2003 05:02:54 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Message-ID: <49cbf610.0312010502.2bd63c23@posting.google.com> References: <49cbf610.0311191248.7eb48a43@posting.google.com> <49cbf610.0311200221.1df60a@posting.google.com> <49cbf610.0311291522.43865a57@posting.google.com> <49cbf610.0311300940.1d54147d@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.248.15.108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1070283774 29070 127.0.0.1 (1 Dec 2003 13:02:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:02:54 +0000 (UTC) Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:3048 Date: 2003-12-01T05:02:54-08:00 List-Id: "Robert I. Eachus" wrote in message news:... > Dmytry Lavrov wrote: > > > Both could be original,IMO,if copyed very well. > > That is where quantum mechanics comes in. Heisenberg's Uncertainty > Principle limits exact copying. Quantum teleportation gets around that > ALL of the QM state is copied exactly. As i have said,that is antiparticle or light with perpendicular polarisation.It's not exact copy anyway.And you can't teleport something more or less massive and complex(say,one hidrogen atom is massive enought) because you need atom and anti-atom formed from energy at same moment in same process AND atom to be teleported.Or you have to teleport particle-by-particle,that's not required thing anyway. > But the QM state of the orignial > is destroyed and you can't use the process to make two different copies. I can use the process to make 2 copyes ;-) from one source(read that source and make 2 copies) > > If a you think a copy of YOU without the QM data is still you, go for > it. Well,i'm now is a copy without qm data of i'm ,say,1E-nn seconds ago. > I believe otherwise, but it will be a while before the experiment > is tried. To yourself check if you're a copy with qm or without,you need to destroy that qm state anyway ;-). > > > We send signal to "z-transmitter"(transmitter of super-luminal > > data,"emmits z-rays" :),it's sends to z-receiver A,then Mr. X routes > > it to z-transmitter B(Mr X can use normal light to route data,in facts > > X is not needed),then it comes to z-receiver B,and we can get it > > before we sends,and if time is too short,we routes it again to A to > > get necessary "negative time"... > > The reason that the Nimtz process can't be used this way is that the > superluminal transition takes the same (positive) time in all frames. What with zero time _in_system_ A? Or infinitely small positive value? My experiment still work as time phone,if time is _zero_ in frame A,it's _negative_ in frame "We" and frame B . The speed when we don't have time phone is equal to speed of light. > You can calculate an equivalent velocity by taking the distance traveled > with respect to some observer and divide by the (constant) transition > time. But since the time is constant and always positive there is no > way to send data back in time. > > Look at it this way. We have three observers A and B a distance apart > and C at A's location but travelling at 1/2 c. > > A,C ---------------------> B > <--------------------- > > A sends a message to B, which takes k picoseconds. B then sends a copy > back to C again taking k picoseconds. A and C see B recieve the message > at different times in the future. But both see the message from B > arriving 2k picoseconds after A's message was sent. Paradox averted. And what's with principes of special relativity ? They don't work here. My example assumes that SRT work right.If your example assumes that there's no relativity,ok,if there's no relativity,no problems :). > Notice that A and B compute the distances and (round trip) velocity the > same, but C sees the distance (and speed) differently. principial question: What when distance is perpendicular to velocity? We have absolute time now? > > It is one of those elegant things that once your mind says "Aha!" you > see that it is the only way to have superluminal communication without > causality violations--the transmission time, not the speed must be the > same for all observers. > > > Also about name.Even without digging deep,"Closed timelike curve".If > > it's closed,it's mean that for particle there's no future.Particle > > stay on that loop.That's NOT the time mashine in any meaning,time > > mashine 1:don't have scientific meaning too;2:it have only sci-fi > > meaning that have nothing with looped particle or looped you. > > Yes, and no. This stuff gets pretty deep quickly, but some parts are > simple. Around any singuality (including black holes) in a steady state > there must be a surface where any photon travelling perpendicular to the > surface is on a closed timelike curve. In other words it is in orbit > around the black hole. In the rest frame distant from the black hole, > these photons have zero energy, but they have considerable energy > relative to anything falling into the black hole. > > Now rotate the black hole. The radius at which a photon travels in a > closed loop is different depending on whether it is going in the > direction of the rotation or against it. Orbits at an angle to the > plane of rotation precess, an the number of orbits before a photon comes > back to its starting point can be large. (In fact it will pass "near" > that point at a different angle at least once before it returns to > approximately the same point with the same velocity vector.) So for a > rotating black hole there are many of these shells and they overlap. > > Now let's look at two (non-rotating or with small angular momentum) > black holes coming together. There is a volume on the connecting axis > where at one instant you are outside both sets of closed timelike > curves, then you are inside another larger set around both black holes. > But how can you get out? At a different matter infall, or the same > one, you can exit if and only if you are moving backwards in time. See > how easy that is? (Riiiggght!) And then you have to close the curve .Or it's not a closed timelike curve,ops?. > > Constant mass infall doesn't create this situation, so just because a > black hole has an accretion disk doesn't mean you can exit just anywhere > in time. For any black hole there are a finite number of potential > entry and exit points, and the point of formation may or may not be one > of them. On the other hand even if a black hole that was formed in a > supernova explosion did have the right characteristics at formation, you > could come out in the middle of a supernova explosion. (Ouch!) Same > for black holes formed during the first few milliseconds after the big > bang, the exit point is going to be a little hot! When you're escaping,you have to travel forward in time and go into hole again.Again and again. (i'm assuming that it's really CLOSED timelike curve) If you haven't born in blackhole or particles your body formed from aren't from the same blackhole(s),you can't travel,that not in your fatum. _Closed_ timelike curve have nothing with time mashine(because it's closed) anyway and that promotion that "our works will show us way to build time mashine" is a bad thing and symptom that there's something changes in bad direction. I pretty sure that it's closed in time and particle can't have complex time-loop.(ex. travel from t1 to t2>t1,then from t2 to t3,t2>t3>t1,and so-on) Pretty sure that this inpossible: |big bang -----------------> | * <-----|---- * | --------------------------------> and back to big-bang because we maybe live in closed curve. here | mean possible interaction with itself. When travelling backward, it's protected from interaction because in blackhole.Should be protected in forward too Absolutely sure that this closed curves also forbid causal loop well. With quantum:there's no general relativity+quantum theory.So it's at least "strange" way to do the math for time travel now before doing that theory. Our future depents to current state.Our current state,so,depend to our future. And last but not least:Who is author of that sci-fi interpretation? Serious scientist newer makes such sci-fi interpretations of his own work. Of course,good old sci-fi used something old to travel,and not surprising that now it uses blackholes+quantum to travel because not many peoples understands general relativity well ,and there's no theory for general relativity and quantum. Of course while simple mix of general relativity and quantum phisicaly have no meaning,so it's possible to do some "right" math with wrong sources. It have all signs of bad sci-fi,even if it's really a good work.