From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,5cb36983754f64da X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2004-04-03 05:06:42 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!d9c68f36!not-for-mail Message-ID: <406EB6D2.8030801@noplace.com> From: Marin David Condic User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: No call for Ada (was Re: Announcing new scripting/prototyping language) References: <20040206174017.7E84F4C4114@lovelace.ada-france.org> <54759e7e.0402071124.322ea376@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:06:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.65.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1080997601 165.247.65.204 (Sat, 03 Apr 2004 05:06:41 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 05:06:41 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:6722 Date: 2004-04-03T13:06:41+00:00 List-Id: Keep in mind that while Java has its market, not everything is suited to a virtual machine, so its not as if Java and Ada are two interchangeable parts. Going along those lines, you say "if it cannot be done in Ada, there is a good chance that it SHOULDN'T be done at all" - I'd have to observe that there are lots of things that Ada does not bring to the table that would preclude it from playing in certain markets. Obviously, there is the virtual machine aspect. While there was a compiler for the JVM, I don't think it is supported any more and there isn't much demand for it. Lack of a good quality compiler for the JVM is going to keep it from consideration where the JVM is a critical part. Then there is the issue of a GUI. Java comes with a GUI as an integral part. Ada does not. There are a few GUI-building kits for Ada, but not a standard one. So Java gets to come to the table saying "Here's your language and here's your GUI and all the Java developers know how to use both and they both work together in a variety of places..." Ada comes to the table saying "Here's your language and you can go find the GUI of your choice and hope it works with your compiler and maybe it won't have as many features as our competitors, and you can spend time to train up your programmers in how to use it and....." Add to that the presence of available class libraries and Ada comes up short there as well. While Ada does have some standard libraries and it has various open source libraries available out on the net and vendors provide libraries of their own invention, its not the same as someone looking at what Java provides just by virtue of being Java. So Ada often starts out several yards back from the starting line when getting considered for a project. People in the business of making software are not there to promote some specific language or even some set of programming virtues. They're in it to make money and so issues like time to market or cost of development start becoming factors that make Ada a difficult choice to justify. I understand the notion of saying "I'll become a Java expert so I can pick and choose from a large variety of jobs and locations." I think that is something that puts off a lot of developers who might otherwise consider Ada. But in order for there to be more Ada jobs, Ada has to find its way into more businesses & industries. That can only happen if Ada can offer something *more* than is currently there with Java, C++, etc. (Why should someone switch to Ada unless they can get everything they already have and then some?) And Ada zealots could go out and start businesses of their own selling something written in Ada which would have the effect of creating jobs and encouraging emulation of a successful model. MDC Beth Bruzan wrote: > I recently[read today] ,after approximately 7 years of not reading, have > started reading this newsgroup again..... I should mention that I am a > senior Java Architect, as well as an Ada zealot. I recommend Ada to anyone > that is trying to get into OO-based software engineering. Most of them > ignore this recommendation. Some (I will call them the enlightened ones), > actually take it to heart, and sit down with GNAT, and the Ada95 RM. And > start asking me questions. I put it to this group (and anyone else that is > interested), that THESE apprentices quickly progress in abilities. I would > gladly compare one of these pupils to an "experienced" Java (and possibly > C++) developer, because they actually understand what, and why things need > to be done, and designed well. > > After reading the original posting, I was about to sit down and do what > Ludovic has done so nicely. (luckily, I read more because I just don't have > the time at the moment) > > Indeed, Java does have some niceties ( such as the automatic garbage > collection, run-time optimization, etc). However, with proper design and > implementation, Ada does not need garbage collection, and optimizations can > be done (and for most compilers do) at compile-time. Admittedly, Ada does > have to be recompiled for each platform, but then it runs without the need > for a virtual machine, and is inherently more efficient. On top of this, > you can develop Ada that compiles to bytecode, and runs well on virtual > machines. > > What is comes down to, for me, is the ease of finding a job in any specific > location. This allows me to live where I want, when I want. The current > call for Java is quite large, so I tend to work in Java. > > In short, I would say that if it cannot be done in Ada, there is a good > chance that it SHOULDN'T be done at all. > > > > > BTW Thank you again Ludovic. > -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g c n i c . r "Face it ladies, its not the dress that makes you look fat. Its the FAT that makes you look fat." -- Al Bundy ======================================================================