From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,INVALID_DATE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,b19fa62fdce575f9 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,ef0074ec236ba6e3 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,ef0074ec236ba6e3 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 108717,ef0074ec236ba6e3 X-Google-Attributes: gid108717,public X-Google-Thread: 1108a1,ef0074ec236ba6e3 X-Google-Attributes: gid1108a1,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 1994-12-06 08:45:27 PST Path: bga.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!gopher.cs.uofs.edu!guinness.cs.uofs.edu!beidler From: beidler@guinness.cs.uofs.edu (Jack Beidler) Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c,comp.programming,comp.lang.c++,comp.object Subject: Re: Teaching (was: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Date: 6 Dec 1994 15:53:37 GMT Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Distribution: world Message-ID: <3c21e1$nj@gopher.cs.uofs.edu> References: <3a6oc5$dkh@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3avnpi$1rf@sage.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <3b2bfn$487@calvin.st-and.ac.uk> <3b9s34$m58@cleese.apana.org.au> <3bfn7t$75j@felix.seas.gwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: guinness.cs.uofs.edu Xref: bga.com comp.lang.ada:8340 comp.lang.c:33554 comp.programming:5658 comp.lang.c++:39826 comp.object:9513 Date: 1994-12-06T15:53:37+00:00 List-Id: In article <3bfn7t$75j@felix.seas.gwu.edu>, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes: |> In article <3b9s34$m58@cleese.apana.org.au>, |> Andrew Dunstan wrote: |> |> >But your attack is wide of the mark. Languages should be used in teaching for |> >their pedagogic values, not for their application in industrial use. I happen |> >to think that Ada is well-suited to both purposes, but let us at least make |> >the distinction clear. If students can be taught good programming practise |> >with one tool, then picking up another language should be a snap. I don't even |> >remember how many computer languages I have written in - I lost count somewhere |> >in the 'teens. |> |> Bingo. |> |> We are tending more and more to blur the distinction Andrew points to, |> and this is a real problem. I happen to agree that Ada is a good choice |> for both purposes, and I think most teachers who have given Ada an honest |> try in recent years have tended to agree. Many of the students do too. |> Let me relate an incident that occurred last summer -- Through our local Chamber of Commerce, I met with high level executives (CEOs, CIOs, etc.) of 38 firms in our area that have significant software development staffs. This includes several firms whose local staffs develop software that is used nationally and internationally. As the meeting was coming to an end I explained to them why we use Ada as the foundation language for our CS, IS, and SE degree programs (namely, we wish to emphasize concepts -- not only does Ada not get in the way, but it actually helps with this goal). A number of participants insisted that we should offer courses in C++ for their employees. I stated that concepts are the issue. Their typical C programmers do not appreciate the concepts, hence need to understand concepts before they will make good use of C++. The typical resonse from them was that they did not need the concepts, they just wanted to use C++ because that's were the industry was going!! I am reminded of a comment made to me once (I believe it was made by Rich Pattis). "Just as today's good C programmers were educated using Pascal, tomorrow's good C++ programmers will be educated using Ada". I see this point made every year when students who have been using Ada in CS 2 and our Advanced Data Structures and Algorithms Course take our Operating Systems Course. The faculty member who teaches that course requires student programs be written in C (or C++). The students learn the new language on their own. His first response to student programs was that the student programs don't look like typical C programs -- they are modularize, you can read them, they use meaning variable names, etc. As for learning C or C++ in the first course, I am reminded of an anti drinking and driving billboard "Drinking and driving is stoopid" (spelled that way). TEACHING C OR C++ IN THE FIRST COURSE IS STOOPID Teacher who teach such a course deserve the grade of C or C++ as an educator. They certainly don't deserve tenure. +----------------------------------------+------------------------+ |John (Jack) Beidler ++ beidler@cs.uofs.edu | | Professor, Computing Sciences Dept. ++ | | University of Scranton ++ (717) 941-7446 (voice) | | Scranton, PA 18510 ++ (717) 941-4250 (FAX) | +------------------------------------+----------------------------+