From: Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com>
Subject: Re: Clause "with and use"
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:03:06 GMT
Date: 2003-11-02T13:03:06+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <3FA50083.10709@noplace.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: slrnbq9qti.qu.randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no
There's an article in the Nov 03 issue of Communications of the ACM
called "Measuring Productivity In The Software Industry" Among other
things it talks about "Understandibility" and the energy lost in trying
to decrypt algorithms coded to minimize the number of keystrokes used to
write them. The authors think that "economy of expression" is
counter-productive. (Although, like most articles on productivity, they
don't have any data to back it up.)
Its an interesting article, although I find it problematic that they
(like others) make the comparison between software productivity and
microprocessor chip speed. (Basically that microprocessors keep doubling
in speed every so many months and yet software productivity seems to
even be slowing down.) I find this comparison totally unreasonable
because the two things are entirely qualitatively different. What does
the speed at which one tool *runs* have to do with the time it takes to
design another tool? Because Dodge came out with the Viper - which can
run double the speed of the Neon - that should make their engineers
design carbeurators at twice the speed?
It *might* be fair to compare the *Design Time* of a microprocessor to
the *Design Time* of a software system - but even there, I find a
qualitative difference. In electronics, a designer can develop circuitry
for some function and use it like a brick - put a few million of them
into the chip. He gets credit for a million whozits units on the chip
but really only *designed* one of them. A software engineer designs a
blivet and then moves on to design the next blivet. Does he get credit
for the million times the first blivet gets called in some loop
somewhere? No - he gets credit for designing two blivets. The two things
just can't be counted the same way.
Anyway, its an interesting article and I liked the criticism of "terse"
programming as being counter-productive.
MDC
Preben Randhol wrote:
>
> Shortcuts are customisable.
>
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm
Send Replies To: m o d c @ a m o g
c n i c . r
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system - it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated"
-- Marin D. Condic
======================================================================
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-11-02 13:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 385+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-10-31 21:02 Clause "with and use" Gautier Write-only
2003-10-31 21:51 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-10-31 22:29 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-11-01 13:39 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-01 14:32 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-01 16:23 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-01 19:59 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-01 3:39 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-02 12:03 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-03 2:26 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-01 4:07 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-03 8:22 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-11-03 17:37 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-01 7:09 ` Russ
2003-11-01 10:29 ` Pascal Obry
2003-11-01 11:57 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-01 13:24 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-01 22:12 ` Pascal Obry
2003-11-02 10:45 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-02 11:34 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-02 12:04 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-02 13:03 ` Marin David Condic [this message]
2003-11-02 13:10 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-02 13:49 ` Software vs Hardware productivity (was: Re: Clause "with and use") Marin David Condic
[not found] ` <pn4g71-ned.ln1@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-11-02 22:25 ` Clause "with and use" Marin David Condic
2003-11-04 17:25 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-03 14:36 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-04 9:57 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-04 11:22 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-04 12:45 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-04 15:46 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-04 16:08 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-06 10:10 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 0:07 ` Brian Gaffney
2003-11-18 1:25 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-18 8:50 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-18 10:43 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 10:58 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-18 11:33 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 12:11 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-18 13:46 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-20 3:53 ` Brian Gaffney
2003-11-20 9:20 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 12:33 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-04 17:37 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-05 19:08 ` Russ
2003-11-05 21:11 ` Mark Lorenzen
2003-11-06 3:10 ` Russ
2003-11-06 8:26 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-06 18:52 ` Russ
2003-11-06 20:03 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-07 0:22 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-07 7:02 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-07 19:04 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-07 19:23 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-07 19:38 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-07 22:46 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-09 6:49 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-07 5:04 ` Russ
2003-11-07 20:31 ` Russ
2003-11-07 22:59 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-07 23:33 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-08 8:22 ` Russ
2003-11-08 9:04 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-09 6:59 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-09 14:27 ` Martin Dowie
2003-11-10 7:47 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-06 11:53 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-06 13:36 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-07 1:15 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-07 0:09 ` Mark Lorenzen
2003-11-05 21:20 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-05 21:48 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-03 5:59 ` Russ
2003-11-03 14:32 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-03 22:11 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-04 10:58 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-04 13:16 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-04 15:09 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-04 15:49 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-06 10:55 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-06 13:03 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-06 15:35 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-06 17:26 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-06 20:38 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-06 21:12 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-07 7:08 ` Russ
2003-11-07 8:48 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-08 10:56 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-08 11:35 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 22:28 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-12 12:42 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-08 19:40 ` Russ
2003-11-10 7:38 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-10 13:03 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-10 13:19 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-10 13:38 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-11 7:20 ` Russ
2003-11-11 8:12 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 19:43 ` Russ
2003-11-12 12:35 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 8:31 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 8:57 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 10:10 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-11 10:49 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-11 14:17 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 15:36 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-11 16:08 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 16:24 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-12 12:01 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-12 13:07 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-13 12:12 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-13 17:49 ` Re-Marketing Ada (was "With and use") Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-14 5:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-17 2:31 ` Russ
2003-11-17 3:04 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-17 12:06 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-17 12:49 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-17 12:56 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-17 13:14 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-11-17 17:31 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 11:52 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-17 20:17 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-18 12:31 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-18 13:19 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-18 17:38 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-18 17:11 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-18 17:58 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 20:00 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-20 2:07 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-18 21:20 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-19 17:12 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 22:42 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-19 2:25 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-19 2:38 ` tmoran
2003-11-19 2:53 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-19 17:18 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-19 12:42 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-19 13:05 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-20 12:40 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-20 13:09 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-20 13:37 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-19 17:28 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-19 21:57 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-20 2:12 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-20 18:27 ` Stephen Leake
2003-11-20 1:39 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-20 12:57 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-20 17:47 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-21 12:53 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-21 17:21 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-21 19:06 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-22 4:20 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-22 17:06 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-23 2:17 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-25 0:06 ` Re-Marketing Ada (was "With and use") A new project for generating thin bindings Chad R. Meiners
[not found] ` <3FBF774C.2050108@shore.net>
2003-11-21 17:42 ` Re-Marketing Ada (was "With and use") Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-19 21:07 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-20 9:31 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-19 17:15 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-19 17:52 ` Stephen Leake
2003-11-19 18:15 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-20 3:03 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-20 12:19 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-11-20 18:01 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-21 10:55 ` Generic thinbinding toolkit for C Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-11-21 18:02 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-22 4:25 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-22 5:12 ` Warren Gay
2003-11-24 10:20 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-11-17 17:29 ` OT: Nuclear Waste (Was Re-Marketing Ada) Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-17 18:01 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-20 12:14 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-20 15:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-20 15:41 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 16:40 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-20 17:03 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 18:59 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-21 8:37 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 19:26 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-20 22:55 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-21 0:00 ` Jeffrey Carter
2003-11-21 13:25 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-21 16:03 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-21 16:31 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 16:27 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-20 19:25 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-20 23:54 ` Larry Elmore
2003-11-21 9:25 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 16:13 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-17 18:45 ` Jeffrey Carter
2003-11-17 19:58 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-17 21:22 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-18 18:00 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 20:02 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-19 17:30 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-19 20:48 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-19 21:10 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-20 1:34 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-20 10:21 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-20 13:40 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-20 18:00 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-20 23:47 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-21 2:51 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-21 9:22 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 16:24 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-29 23:22 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-30 2:33 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-30 17:40 ` OT: Relativity ,super-luminal communications and time travel (Was OT: Nuclear Waste (Was Re-Marketing Ada)) Dmytry Lavrov
2003-12-01 3:40 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-01 13:02 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-12-02 4:38 ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-11-20 15:49 ` OT: Nuclear Waste (Was Re-Marketing Ada) Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-21 12:59 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-21 15:29 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-11-24 17:15 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-22 12:33 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-20 6:31 ` Russ
2003-11-20 11:35 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-20 18:04 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-20 12:49 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-20 13:02 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 14:10 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-20 16:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-20 16:11 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 18:16 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-21 8:47 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-21 9:28 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 12:57 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-21 13:25 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-21 14:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-21 14:24 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 14:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-21 14:53 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-21 13:57 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 14:00 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-21 14:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-20 16:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-21 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-21 16:36 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-21 17:05 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-22 10:45 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-22 10:41 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-17 23:33 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-18 0:31 ` Ludovic Brenta
2003-11-18 11:49 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-18 18:06 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 7:38 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 7:42 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 7:53 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-18 16:06 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-17 22:32 ` Russ
2003-11-18 16:38 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-19 5:36 ` Russ
2003-11-19 15:28 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-11-19 20:01 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-20 9:30 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-20 14:43 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-20 14:55 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-20 15:24 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-20 19:30 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-19 15:41 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-18 18:12 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 18:47 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-19 0:44 ` Russ
2003-11-19 17:33 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-13 22:04 ` Clause "with and use" Wes Groleau
2003-11-14 4:16 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-12 11:55 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-12 13:10 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 19:49 ` Russ
2003-11-11 20:35 ` Russ
2003-11-11 22:06 ` Mark Lorenzen
2003-11-11 22:08 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 22:20 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-11 22:38 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-12 12:46 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-13 7:26 ` Russ
2003-11-13 19:59 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-14 5:09 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-14 6:47 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-14 5:45 ` Russ
2003-11-14 7:51 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-14 7:51 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-14 23:23 ` Russ
2003-11-15 4:39 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-15 11:35 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-15 12:53 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-16 0:36 ` Russ
2003-11-16 2:38 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-16 0:19 ` Russ
2003-11-16 1:41 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-16 2:11 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-11-16 2:28 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-16 14:04 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-16 6:15 ` Russ
2003-11-16 14:00 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-16 13:56 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-15 22:12 ` Russ
2003-11-16 2:29 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-16 7:01 ` Russ
2003-11-16 20:02 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-17 2:34 ` Way off topic was: " Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-17 21:12 ` Russ
2003-11-17 21:29 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-17 23:28 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-17 23:19 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-15 15:19 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-15 16:15 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-15 19:44 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-11-16 0:02 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-16 10:41 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-17 9:04 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-17 14:38 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-17 19:40 ` Russ
2003-11-18 17:01 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-18 8:35 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-16 5:55 ` Russ
2003-11-16 19:31 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-17 1:34 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-15 16:40 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-16 0:25 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-16 1:20 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-16 14:59 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-16 19:39 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-16 21:04 ` Wes Groleau
2003-11-16 10:19 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-14 7:51 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-11 22:30 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-11 22:54 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 14:35 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-11-11 15:04 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-11 20:01 ` Russ
2003-11-12 12:41 ` Preben Randhol
2003-11-13 6:27 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-13 7:32 ` Anders Wirzenius
2003-11-13 12:29 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-13 17:51 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-14 8:32 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-14 14:51 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-17 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-17 16:42 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-18 8:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-19 17:46 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-11-20 8:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-14 20:44 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-14 9:05 ` Anders Wirzenius
2003-11-14 12:37 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-14 15:18 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-15 13:04 ` Marin David Condic
2003-11-18 22:45 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-11-11 15:36 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-11 19:46 ` Eachus' Measure of Goodness (was: Clause "with and use") Jeffrey Carter
2003-11-12 16:08 ` Eachus' Measure of Goodness Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-12 17:24 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-12 17:37 ` tmoran
2003-11-13 3:04 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-13 5:17 ` Jeffrey Carter
2003-11-13 6:28 ` Mark A. Biggar
2003-11-13 9:53 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-13 6:37 ` Clause "with and use" Chad R. Meiners
2003-11-13 19:11 ` tmoran
2003-11-14 4:57 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-14 7:05 ` tmoran
2003-11-14 15:06 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-14 15:15 ` Robert Spooner
2003-11-14 15:54 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-11 16:24 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-11 17:36 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-08 20:08 ` Russ
2003-11-09 4:23 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-11-07 15:54 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-11-06 22:42 ` Dale Stanbrough
2003-11-03 15:35 ` Stephane Richard
2003-11-03 16:26 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-04 7:28 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-03 22:04 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-03 10:47 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-11-03 16:30 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-11-03 22:07 ` Gautier Write-only
2003-11-04 7:28 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-11-06 20:12 ` Gautier Write-only
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-11-03 11:02 christoph.grein
2003-11-06 8:39 christoph.grein
2003-11-06 11:11 amado.alves
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