From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,88ed72d98e6b3457 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-10-18 06:50:34 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F914520.9080906@noplace.com> From: Marin David Condic User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Standard Library Interest? References: <3F8035B0.7080902@noplace.com> <3F816A35.4030108@noplace.com> <3F81FBEC.9010103@noplace.com> <6Ingb.30667$541.13861@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> <3F82B4A4.5060301@noplace.com> <3F82F527.3020101@noplace.com> <3F846B5E.9080502@comcast.net> <3F855460.6020804@noplace.com> <3F86211B.103@comcast.net> <3F8640CA.6090306@noplace.com> <3F881515.4060305@noplace.com> <6lijb.140205$%h1.139381@sccrnsc02> <3F8E9531.9040209@noplace.com> <3F8EDB1A.1010007@noplace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:50:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.165.5.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1066485033 209.165.5.82 (Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:50:33 PDT) mcondic@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:50:33 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:1120 Date: 2003-10-18T13:50:33+00:00 List-Id: Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote: > > I guess our faith is in the different parties. ;-) > > You are willing to trust that the vendors will get things going. I am > too skeptical/cynical to have that kind of trust, beyond anything > more than the GNAT.* packages. > No, I *don't* trust them to "get things going". That's why I'm nagging, complaining, whining, pleading, etc. I expect that people with support contracts with various vendors might send them a note saying "I want a Conventional Ada Library that does X, Y and Z..." A lone voice crying out in the wilderness occasionally can have an impact. :-) However, I doubt I'm alone. As for the GNAT packages - that might actually make a really good start for a Conventional Ada Library. There is visible evidence that ACT is out there actively enhancing their Ada product line, so they would be one of the vendors most likely to do something with a CAL. Are any of the other vendors doing anything with their Ada product lines to enhance them? Or are they just selling what they've got and sitting on their hands, so to speak, with any new development? If ACT was the only one - or perhaps the dominant one - then making ACT happy would be key to success. Starting with what they've already got would be a good way to do it. > My faith is more in the development side. *WE* have the invested > interest. *WE* can more easily *do* something. Vendors have to > budget, plan and justify. Vendors are less likely to do "extreme > programming"/skunkworks type of things to see if an idea will fly. > I didn't say that *WE* wouldn't necessarily have something to do with it. What I said was that the vendors need to be involved early on in some manner or whatever *WE* do is going to be a waste of time. I just absolutely, 100% see a total of ZERO evidence of any of the existing library attempts getting to any sort of point of "general acceptance" that got the vendors interested in packaging it with their compilers or got the ARG to declare it "Standard Ada". Yet there have been dozens - or more - attempts to get various libraries of stuff started. What evidence do you have that starting Yet Another Library Project is going to meet with any better success unless you do something strategically different this time? Sorry if I sould "angry" - I'm not. Just excited. :-) I'm trying to get across the point that if we really want a library effort of some sort to succeed, we'd better look at all the ones that have "failed" in the past and try to make a different set of mistakes. You're not the firt one to get charged up and say "Well, lets go start writing a library..." I'm suggesting you look at why the other efforts failed and figure out a way around that. > *WE* don't have to answer to anyone (as open source/hobby). That > allows us to do R&D, where the vendor (and/or our employer) would > have trouble with. > Yes, but just recall all the other various and sundry "Open Source" / Volunteer oriented projects of any stripe that get started out there. (Should we start a list?) I'd bet that if you actually surveyed, you'd find that 90% of them colapse before they ever produce anything at all useful. The remainder might make something that works, but that it is mostly produced over a *very* long stretch of time and that it really doesn't take on the qualities of a "Finished Product" (more like some kid's sience fair project, usually) until there is some commercial effort out there making money on supporting it. The few that get "Commercialized" might start reacting fairly well and at reasonable speed to perceived needs, but it takes them a really long time to get to that point. What is in your plan to start building a library that is going to make that different? > So, yes, you're right. I would favour "organize an effort", rather > than pleading with vendors. ;-) > Please go right ahead. I'll watch the effort from the sidelines. I'd love to see you or anybody else get a library together that won some kind of acceptance from the general Ada community and got some kind of interest from the vendors and eventually had some sort of official standing. I'm just betting it won't work - and I'm not a pessimist by nature. I've just seen it fail too many times in the past to want to go off and make the same mistakes all over again. At least, let's be creative and make some *different* mistakes this time. :-) Or maybe you have a *different* plan? Something other than an all-volunteer, open source, free for the world, "Let's all get together and build something good & wonderful for Ada and give it away hoping it will be adopted by everyone..." effort? I'd like to see the plan, if that's the case. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for." --Logan Pearsall Smith ======================================================================