From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,88ed72d98e6b3457 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-10-16 05:38:59 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F8E915C.6040003@noplace.com> From: Marin David Condic User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Standard Library Interest? References: <3F7F760E.2020901@comcast.net> <3F8035B0.7080902@noplace.com> <3F816A35.4030108@noplace.com> <3F81FBEC.9010103@noplace.com> <6Ingb.30667$541.13861@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> <3F82B4A4.5060301@noplace.com> <3F82F527.3020101@noplace.com> <3F846B5E.9080502@comcast.net> <3F855460.6020804@noplace.com> <3F86211B.103@comcast.net> <3F8640CA.6090306@noplace.com> <3F881515.4060305@noplace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:38:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.165.25.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1066307938 209.165.25.170 (Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:38:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 05:38:58 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:969 Date: 2003-10-16T12:38:58+00:00 List-Id: Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote: > > IFF you get this kind of answer from some, most or all of the vendors, > then I would agree that you have a "point". But IMHO, this is unlikely > first of all (its not in their interest to go against what the user > base wants), and certainly not a foregone conclusion. Note the "FF" > in "IFF". > Yeah, but AFAIK, they have not said what they *do* want and (assuming they are the initial "customers" you're trying to satisfy) charging off to build something on pure speculation without knowing what the customer wants is a most profound - if not outright sinful - waste of time. Like I've observed elsewhere - we have libraries out there already. Any one of them could be adopted as the basis on which to build. This has not happened. There must be *something* about that path that the vendors are not terribly fond of. So before building Yet Another Ada Library and hoping to get all the Booch and Charles and Etc., users to switch to that and show the vendors that they must get on board because all their customers are doing so, why not just ask the vendors what they'd want to see done first? > What drives the vendors, is what the "users want". Get them using > your stuff. Get them wanting more of your stuff. IOW, get the users > hooked first (a very time honoured principle). The vendors will > fall in line from there. Demand usually drives business. Only in > creative things like the Segway (sp?) where people didn't know they > wanted one, does it work the other way. But I don't think the > vendors are going to have any kind of a surprise for anyone on > this front. ;-) Yes. Absolutely. The vendors will be driven by customer demand. But right now, there are a dozen or so libraries out there and absolutely NO consensus on which one should be adopted as "The Thing". I think customers if surveyed, would indicate that they would want *some* kind of library. They already seem to like getting things like Ada.Strings... and Ada.Numerics... But perhaps they can't agree on which of several existing ones to adopt. Would you propose throwing Yet Another Ada Library into that fray to further divide the pie? If we could agree to adopt one of the existing ones as the basis & start building from there, fine. Except it hasn't happened. If none of these are "Good Enough" then perhaps we can build one that *is* going to meet with acceptance. But who's acceptance and what are their criteria? That's what the vendors could decide and settle. This whole thing is a vicious circle. The vendors are waiting for some clear mandate from their customers. The customers are waiting to see which library will start shipping with their favorite compiler before going through the pain of switching out whatever they're using now in favor of something else. The standards bodies are waiting for both of these groups to settle on something so they can put their Imprimatur on it. So who's going to be the first one to get the ball rolling? I just can't see starting another volunteer effort to charge off and build some new library when we have had plenty of that already and it hasn't worked. Someone with some "clout" has to drive the development and I see that as being the vendors. If you could get even *ONE* vendor to say "All right, we'll go down this path and start shipping this library if you guys go off and build something that meets these guidelines...." then it stands a chance of getting off of bottom dead center. But without even ONE vendor standing up and saying "This is what I'd like to see built....", I don't think its going to get very far. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for." --Logan Pearsall Smith ======================================================================