From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,1116ece181be1aea X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-09-15 01:23:13 PST Message-ID: <3F656321.44A6@mail.ru> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:58:41 +0400 From: Dmytry Lavrov X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Is the Writing on the Wall for Ada? References: <3F5CF12A.6060608@attbi.com> <3F5F76EC.8020807@attbi.com> <3F60EAB7.9030404@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.248.15.43 X-Trace: shknews01 1063608920 213.248.15.43 (15 Sep 2003 14:55:20 +0800) Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!nntp.gblx.net!news2.ilink.net!shknews01 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:42510 Date: 2003-09-15T10:58:41+04:00 List-Id: Alexander Kopilovitch wrote: > > Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > > > ... I am absolutely not surprised with that you story, and with > > > the behaviour of the Russian character in it - I saw similar patterns > > > very many times in former Soviet Union, and I certainly was myself > > > subjected to many such things until recently. Now, after acquiring > > > some experience of working with Americans, I'm much more careful about > > > the procedural aspects of joint work... not because I believe in their > > > importance *for my part of work*, but just for not annoying my partner > > > or customer. > > > > ... as you say, his original style of work was very typical for Russians. > > Just one addition: I forgot to mention that although those elements of style > was indeed widespread among Russian programmers, but that pertains to *male* > programmers only. Female programmers very rarely exhibited those characteristics > - usually they followed all required procedures quite strictly. > > I think that explanation of this difference is that female programmers, > as a rule, are *emotionally* distracted from the essence of their current > programming work. They easily may be emotionally engaged in the details, but > usually not in the essence. > > That correlation (between the emotional engagement in the essence of current > programming work and negligence for *externally established* procedures) > is general, I think, and it surely does not depend on gender. > > So, that past trend in behaviour of male Russian programmers probably should > be considered as a consequence as their (statistically) relatively higher > emotional engagement in the essence of current programming work. That was not > depend on skills, and only slightly depended on experience - that was true > cultural phenomena. > > And in turn, that higher emotional engagement in the essence of current job, > may be explained, at least partially, by the fact that better working performance > in Soviet Union usually did not cause significant difference in one's material > life. Therefore it seems quite natural that many (more or less) intellectually > developed males used the essence of their work as emotionally charged value. > > > Not a problem--if you can adapt to the actual culture of the current > > project. If you can't, eventually your conflict with the project style > > will outweigh the contributions you can and do make. > > That's it. 4 years ago I observed that process myself, in all details. > I joined a local division of one Danish company. Naturally, they tried to > immerse me in their project culture. I must admit, they tried hard. And as > I was that time in quite desperate financial position, like i'm now. I also tried hard. > But nevertheless we all failed, the cultures appeared totally incompatible, > and after 5 months all that nightmare came to the end. Not that I violated > their procedures - no, I was very accurate with all that, but the fatal > incompatibility emerged another way. > > That even was not programming as such, it was design stage, and my job was > to design a part of the system and write the design documents. I wrote the > documents, and then nightmare began. They said that they like my writing > style but disagree with the design approach. Well, we discussed the issues, > and then I reworked the design. With the same result. After 3rd or 4th > iteration I began to hate them (first time in my life... I never knew what is > a true personal hate before that). > > When all that unpleasant adventure ended and I relaxed, I concluded that > they really have no need in any particular design, they wanted some process, > not a result (at least at that stage). My fault was that I did not recognize > that (rather usual) thing. And that was exactly the cultural difference > that made me blind - I misinterpeted obvious symptoms, and went into > false interpretation quite deeply. For example, I took many of their phrases > at face value (or almost that way) just because those phrases were said in > foreign language and by good-looking persons... I could never make such > mistakes with the people that belong to my native culture. > > Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru > Saint-Petersburg > Russia Main problem that ANYWHERE development are "same" as in russia:sometimes absolutely no need in some work,but you should _simulate_ the working process(it does not happen only in really small companies,ex. 5 persons).Result of incorrect management. And "escaped" Russian think that in Danish company there are something different.