From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,cec04f9d45b3f527 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-09-01 07:23:05 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F535639.9060008@noplace.com> From: Marin David Condic User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: An Ada advocacy method References: <3F4F4817.7030306@noplace.com> <3F50130A.1070406@noplace.com> <3F50A70E.7050809@noplace.com> <3F521B65.1090004@noplace.com> <20030831123103.43926d87.falis@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:23:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.165.0.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net 1062426185 209.165.0.238 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 07:23:05 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 07:23:05 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:42034 Date: 2003-09-01T14:23:05+00:00 List-Id: Ed Falis wrote: > > > That really isn't a very good characterization of the point of MFC, > which is that it's an application development framework. When I was > with Aonix, an MFC binding was available at extra cost. > "Application development framework" "Development library" Pick your title - it was a bunch of code I could use to get an app out the door faster. Ada ought to have one. It shouldn't be an exact duplicate of MFC, but that doesn't mean the MFC wasn't important in providing lots of capabilities. Lack of some kind of big development library is a weakness. > > Don't remember the details on this in ObjectAda. I do know that > "hovering" was implemented as a contextual help aid. > A one sentence blurb while hovering over something is a long way away from a really thorough collection of hyperlinked documentation. Say what you will about Microsoft - the documentation you got from MSVC++ was pretty thorough. It would be a useful thing to have the ARM similarly hyperlinked and (should Ada ever get something resembling a library) it would be a good thing to have thorough documentation about all the available stuff in a library. > > OA did put you right where the problem was, but I don't think you > were in a position to edit and rebuild without exiting the debugger > (it was a while ago for me). Patching was not implemented. In GPS, > you are in the source, can edit and rebuild. Given the speed of > rebuilding, patching is really not necessary. > I won't harp on the debugger because I think it is less necessary for Ada than with C++. (Most of what I ever needed it for was tracing wayward pointers or bad values in some variable or other things that were difficult or impossible to create in Ada.) However, I *liked* the fact that it was so tightly integrated. Patching was cool. If you're going to have a debugger, this level of integration is good to shoot for. > As of the last time I looked (3 years ago), the GUI builder was still > somewhat separate, but better than it had been. > The thing that was nice about the GUI builder in MSVC++ was the fact that the GUI was part of the project and you got all sorts of code generation out of it that made it easy to hook up to the app. I hated all the cryptic comments and other trash that it stuck into things to enable the code generation to work, but it at least got me a GUI and its related code really fast. In Ada, it might be possible to do the code generation better than in C++. What I liked was that they at least picked a framework for developing an app and then started providing tools to help the developer work within the framework to get an app out the door. Ada could do something similar and possibly keep it moderately platform independent. > > > Check out the version control in GPS. > I have only taken a sideways glance at this. My understanding is that GPS can be made to talk to CVS or other third-party products. I suppose I've got my own ideas on this score and could imagine a nearly invisible sort of CM integrated in with an IDE. I won't harp on this one much because the original point was about the capabilities of MSVC++ and what was good about that. MSVC++ didn't do much except hook up to some other system as well, so this isn't an issue here. But if Ada wants to win, it needs to be *better* than what is already out there and I can imagine all sorts of possibilities as to how CM might be one area in which to be "better". > One thing to bear in mind while you "bitch, bitch bitch" is that OA > was an attempt to put together a Windows development environment for > Ada that at least approached MSVC++. A lot of effort went into it, > but the bottom line was that there was insufficient volume for it to > succeed at a competitive price point, especially with the support > requirements of its native market (people used to getting support for > $10K+ type systems rather than the kind they got with MSVC++). The > money wasn't there to move the product to the same kind of > capability, though we tried awfully hard. > This is interesting, but not compelling. What made Aonix less successful than desired in this area were strategic mistakes - not the notion that Ada needs an environment that has capabilities similar to MSVC++ (and beyond). The first mistake was trying to *duplicate* what MSVC++ did in every way. The very best one could hope for would be to forever be playing "catch up" and "me too!!!" with Microsoft - who has far more resources than Aonix does and hence they could *never* win. Another mistake was in not doing sufficient market research to determine what the customers wanted and what they were willing to pay to get it. ACT seems to be doing O.K. selling premium level support, so it must be possible. (Proof by existence! :-) So I don't accept that there was anything wrong with the notion of developing a well integrated IDE and looking at MSVC++ (as well as other tools) to see what they did *right* in the process of figuring out what that Ada IDE should be. Aonix had the wrong business strategy, not the wrong technical capability nor insufficient effort on the part of those involved. > > But from my current location, check out GPS. ;-) > I have GPS downloaded and it does look pretty spiffy. Its heading in the right direction. It needs to continue to provide more capabilities and (from my perspective, at least) those capabilities should be tightly integrated and come in a "One-Stop-Shopping" kit. (It could also stand to have a few bugs fixed so that one could actually select some style options and not have the system puke over it, but that's another story. ;-) But some of the problems are more Ada-in-general than GPS or some other IDE-specific. Why couldn't there be a nice, big, library with all sorts of things in it that *exceed* the expectations people usually have for a language library? Why couldn't there be a standardized database interface that came with development kits (along with a database?) so people would come to expect this from Ada? Why couldn't there be a standardized GUI interface that provided some kind of portable connection between an app and the native GUI? If Ada wants to attract developers, it needs to provide new and interesting capabilities that one doesn't find with other languages. There are lots of areas in which this could be done. Some of it involves building better IDEs. Some of it involves improving overall language capabilities. I know I'd have an easier time selling it to my customers if I could say "Look, Ada does *way more* than C++, so I'll save you time and money while building your project..." I have a hard time selling it if all I can claim is that it does "almost as much..." ;-) MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jast.mil/ Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -- Voltaire ======================================================================