From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,2d69f4a8070dd707 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-06-11 04:05:27 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail From: Marin David Condic Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Provisional Standards was RE: Ada.Networks.Sockets hierarchy (Provisional Standard?) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:05:22 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <3EE70CF2.2070503@noplace.com> References: <3EDC8FA6.2000308@noplace.com> <3EDFAC9F.5040802@cogeco.ca> <3EE5C45B.700@noplace.com> <3EE612BD.1080402@cogeco.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.bb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 11 Jun 2003 11:06:55 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:38971 Date: 2003-06-11T11:06:55+00:00 List-Id: Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote: > > Agreed that the end result is to gain general acceptance, and this > of course includes the vendors. Do we need this acceptance a priori? > I don't think you need their a priori acceptance of anything produced, but you need some acceptance of the notion that some kind of committee or organization is going to be out there producing something that they are expected to accept or endorse in some manner. Otherwise, they are likely to simply wait to see if there is some market demand that they bundle this into their compilers in some way. Then you're back to exactly where we are at with things like the Booch components or a dozen other decent container libraries. Everybody wanting a "standard" container library and no concensus as to which of a dozen available ones it should be. The vendors have to get out front and lead here. > I personally don't think so, and I think it would be difficult to do > so until there is something to present. We need more than an egg, > and something short of a chicken to get there ;-) > If you had the vendors and/or the ARG and/or other interested players willing to say "Look, we've got a library over here that might make a good start and we''re willing to expand on that in some way..." then maybe you can make that work. I'm not suggesting at this point that they have to sign up to either a) accept without review anything produced or b) shell out several million to build it. I'm suggesting that there be some kind of informal understanding that they at least accept the idea of having some group assemble something like a provisional standard library that they would adopt and ship with their compilers. (Or at least point to and call it "Ada") Get a gentleman's agreement that this is a concept they *might* be willing to sign up for should an acceptable product be built and then maybe you can get somewhere. > > This statement (by itself) is just negative thinking. What are the I'm only negative about an approach that doesn't include the Keepers Of The Ada Standard in on the deal. If they are a priori against it, it fails. If they are indiferent to it, it fails. The only possibility of success is if the library becomes such a universally accepted thing without them that they are forced to deal with it. If that was likely, why hasn't it happened with one of the already existing container libraries? > > That's great, and I think there are a number of others that will > do the same. In fact, if the project gets enough momentum, I am > sure that even more will become involved at some level or another. > Such volunteer efforts have been started in the past. They tend to fizzle. I'm not saying it *can't* work - just that it hasn't. Perhaps there is a better approach than a purely voluntary, labor of love, effort? I think so. We could discuss it off line if you like & maybe formulate some ideas together. > > Why? Linux was a toy in the beginning. If it stays as a toy, then > this indicates that the interest in it has languished for some > reason or another. Not necessarily because that the idea itself > was flawed. > For every "Linux" you can point to, I can point to probably several thousand fizzled efforts that have never got beyond being amusing toys. You might get a nice, solid container library out of it, but that is a relatively smallish sort of "toy". A *real* library ought to encompass a rather large range of topics (I have ideas on that as well) and it quickly becomes something bigger than what could be built and maintained by a bunch of part-time volunteers. Or at least unlikely to be built by volunteers and you'd get a hodgepodge of cobbled-together pieces lacking any consistent "theme" and you'd have uncertain maintenance & support. Realistically, I think this needs to be done (or at least picked up by) some organized, funded body - and there are ways to do that without spending a fortune. > > Money always helps, no question about it. But a vast amount of > software has been contributed without this requirement. If we want > a sourced-based UNIX, then things like FreeBSD and Linux are the > result. If we _want_ a Ada network library, we _can_ do it without > $upport, if we want to. I am not saying that we should turn away > support, however. > Why not try to find some support? I think if there is money behind it, it increases the probability of success dramatically. > > Perhaps yourself and Bob Leif and I should discuss some ideas offline. > I have also received a couple of other quiet notices of interest by > email. Let's keep an open mind about how we get there, and try to > determine the next steps. Test, debug and reiterate until we > succeed. ;-) Drop me an e-mail. See my garbled address below. Maybe we can formulate some ideas off line. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jast.mil/ Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -- Voltaire ======================================================================